trolls
by rantywoman
But the whole, despicable, episode has spotlighted an issue that in our love-affair with social media is not discussed enough; one of its favourite punching bags is childless, single women.
Hiding gutlessly behind anonymous accounts, way too many misogynists make sport online of bullying childless and single women, vigorously and often. Now, with demonstrable, devastating effect.
Why women who are not married, or mothers, are singled out for special, sexist poison is a mystery. But any regular user who follows high-profile women will likely recognise this disturbing theme.
To say you’ve even noticed it is risky, because it gratifies the attention-crazed intentions of the more brutal trolls.
But I think it needs airing that women such as Dawson can face a drip-drip or bash-bash of such disgusting, personally-tailored abuse, in which often their own infertility or involuntary childlessness is brandished as the weapon.
Sexism is one, still too-common thing, but the contempt for women who have not married or for whatever reason don’t have kids, is nothing short of shocking.
thebitterbabe 
I had not heard of Charlotte Dawson until now but as she’s some kind of TV personality, the so-called Twitter attack is probably more a result of that than of her childless state.
Your quote implies the haters are men (“misogynists” – i.e. male women haters). If you read further down the quoted article you find:
“The social media war started after Dawson tracked down one alleged Twitter hater, Tanya Heti, who has since been suspended from her mentoring job at Melbourne’s Monash University…..”
So this is about jealous women attacking another woman who’s managed to climb higher on the greasy pole.
But forget that. It must be time to make a new law criminalizing hate speech against childless women. For men only of course.
It is men – it is the same stuff that appears on the red pill sites. And when you read enough of them a pattern begins to emerge of the type of man that comments on these and that is generally a man who can’t get a girlfriend. He often harbours anger at being unappealing to women when he was younger and likes to blame the girl(s) that he never got to have sex with, then turns that anger to other women rather than take any kind of responsibility for his own social ineptness or other reason that has made him unnattractive to women. Which is why they get a particular thrill out of older women who are single or childless – it’s their way of saying “serves you right for turning me, and other men like me, down in the past”. just as in the next breath they say “see I’m attractive to women now and you’re old and wrinkly, and I can still have babies and your ovaries are dead”. For an illustration look no further than M3s redial post on Incel (Involuntary celibacy) for a real eye opener on no holds barred hatred of women who won’t have sex with them.http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/confessions-of-a-reformed-incel/
What I have learnt from this though, and I think it is unintentional, is the power that women must have if refusal to bestow attention/sex of a man brings them to this. It means I flirt even more now 🙂
On a man not of a man. But this post attracted almost 500 comments from mainly other men too and here is an extract :
When i hear a woman tell me that she’s gone through a dry spell and not had sex in over X weeks/ months.. i feel like putting my fist through her face.
When i hear a woman tell me that she feels ugly or unloved or unwanted because her partner hasn’t touched her in over 6 months, i feel like laughing loudly 3 inches from her face.
When i hear a woman tell me that she just picked up a random guy for a night of fun because she was lonely, i feel like i’m glad i don’t own a gun.
When i hear a woman tell me that i shouldn’t feel bad about having gone without for so long, after all it’s only just sex, i feel like disfiguring her face with a scalpel.
I’m not saying there isn’t some good stuff on the sites, but…..
Fi,
M3, like most of the single men in the militant manosphere, are angry about rejection from the haaaawt girls. It is their only real frame of reference for acknowledging any form of human suffering. The quiet, non-flashy girls who aren’t in the popular clique – and are perhaps (but not necessarily) less physically attractive – are invisible to them.
The militant manosphere is all about an obsession with the haaaawt girls (male hypergamy). Their hatred for the haaaawt girls is then projected onto an entire gender.
Similarly, the married men in the manosphere are inevitably married to shallow women who don’t respect them. Ergo, to the manosphere mind, “all women are shallow”, whether haaaaawt or not.
With all that said, I also flirt more as a result of learning about the male nature from reading red pill sites, since I like men, and do not hold the male gender responsible for the attitudes of a minority of misogynistic, hypergamous men.
i like men too. I have also learned a lot from some of these sites. But not all the sites are equal and not all men are ok. And I reserve the right to criticise attitudes I don’t like while commending the ones I do. You’re right – it is the minority of men who blame women for their own inadequacies.
Fi
It is men – it is the same stuff that appears on the red pill sites.
I’m not saying men don’t do this. They do. But the article quoted by bitter babe described how the persistent troll tracked down by Charlotte Dawson turned out to be a woman. Bitter babe didn’t include this part of the article in her quote for some reason.
And I just checked back on bitter babe’s linked article and mirabile dictu, that paragraph has been deleted from the Herald Sun article since I quoted it. The thought police are on call even on Sundays.
It’s just as well this information appears in several other places so the fact that the primary hater was a woman is not stuffed down the memory hole.
The comments on the Herald Sun Charlotte Dawson article remain unedited. I quote:
“In my experience on the internet, it is most often other women who taunt childless or unmarried/single women.”
KJ
“It is usually women who are the nastiest ones, AND the first to comment on another woman’s status (clothes, weight, relationship, hair etc). Women are nasty to women. That is why it is weak when Julia Gillard claims sexism as it is, for the most part, other women making the personal comments – guys couldn’t care less. Take a look at Germain Greer recently….and she claims to be a feminist!”
enough of Lara
“Ok, so why is it sad that Charlotte has been hospitalised, she bought alot of this on herself by stating she isn’t human. It all started because she bagged her country, then re-tweeted a negative comment she got from a follower. Seriously what did she expect?? because she is a “celebrity” she is above everyone, no not the case. You can’t feed the troll and then cry woe is me.”
Woe is ME of DOREEN
Men do it just as I referred to. But yep you’re right women do it too and for different reasons. See Cameron Diaz’s latest comments in todays Mail and the responses to it http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2603467/I-make-married-people-nervous-handle-fact-Im-single-says-Cameron-Diaz.html
That link is scary. If anything, it should be a wake up call to parents of quiet, shy socially awkward sons to get them away from the computer screen. The last thing boys like this need is toxic advice from people advocating violence.
Fi
For an illustration look no further than M3s redial post on Incel (Involuntary celibacy) for a real eye opener on no holds barred hatred of women.
The man who wrote that doesn’t hate women.
Adult women have a normal testosterone level peaking at about 70 ng/dL (nanograms per decilitre).
Think about how horny you have felt at times with a maximum testosterone level of 70 ng/dL.
Adult men have a normal testosterone level peaking at about 1,070 ng/dL – 15 times higher than for women.
Nature – God, evolution, whatever – made us this way. There’s no morality or evil intent involved.
You’re lucky Western men love and revere women. If you lived in the Congo you’d have something to complain about.
There is no correlation between M3’s testosterone levels and his misogyny. Nearly all men have very high sex drives, every bit as high as M3s, but they don’t hate women.
Manosphere sites and discussions about women/being incel – harmless or not?
Feeling behind the times … what is ‘haaaawt’ and ‘red pill sites’?
hot. And men’s sites filled with men writing predominantly about women – hot to treat them (badly), get them, pump and dump them, explaining why women are not as intelligent as them, why women belong in the kitchen etc etc. check out the M3 post I linked to, and from that site you can link in to others. If you’re brave. However in amongst the dross you do pick up helpful info on what makes (normal) men tick and what they like in women. It has helped me enormously in my flirting with them – something that would make them really mad if they thought that was what women did with the information they picked up as they generally think we’re pretty evil and manipulative anyway. I don’t like to disappoint them either 🙂
To be honest though there is useful info in there, and if you do like men, it can enrich your relationships with them
Fi
See Cameron Diaz’s latest comments in todays Mail and the responses to it.
At 41 Cameron Diaz has hit the wall. Hard.
So it’s not surprising she’s decided it’s time for love. “‘I’m totally down for love,’ she added. ‘And I now know that what is most attractive in a man to me is authenticity.”
Well, you ladies know what comes next for Cameron.
As your male psychology coach I’m going to set you a little homework.
Would you rather date Russell Crowe (Bradley Cooper if you prefer) or a waiter that looks exactly like Russell Crowe (Bradley Cooper)?
And then, do you think a typical man would rather date Cameron Diaz (pre-wall) or a waitress that looks exactly like Cameron Diaz?
The Wall. A concept that only appears on redpill sites
The concept of “the wall” doesn’t have much meaning with normal men because although normal men are just as visual as Militant Red Pill men, they tend to see women as multidimensional, with physical beauty being only one variable.
Militant Red Pill men, by contrast, see women as basically worthless except for their physical appearance, ergo their obsession with haaawt girls, and the Militant Red Pill consensus that once a haaawt girl loses her youthful beauty she is basically worthless.
Waiter, waitress, college professor – what does it matter? There is no such thing as a “typical” man or woman. I never fancied George Clooney doctor character in Grays Anatomy, I thought he was too arrogant and flashy. I preferred his quieter gaffe prone colleague. Likewise I could never see the attraction in the SATC Mr Big caricature. Carrie should have married Aidan.
Mike, you will be glad to hear Bradley Cooper is dating a 22 year old. Good luck to him. I don’t know about Russell Crowe but I’m sure Cameron Diaz could find someone if she really wanted. Celebrity quotes mean nothing – more often than not they come from the pen of a publicist rather than the lips of a celebrity.
As mike illustrates the troll like thinking so well – Cameron is not married with children and she’s ‘hit the wall’ ie turned into an old hag. Who wants her now??!!!! 🙂
Elle
I’m sure Cameron Diaz could find someone if she really wanted.
Let’s wait and see.
She could always hang with Demi Moore in the meantime.
One of the many reasons a woman should marry young – assuming she wants to marry at all – is that her husband will always see her as she was when they married. Cameron Diaz no longer has that option.
Elle,
I like thoughtful, understated men, too. I’ve never been attracted to the alphas even though these types have pursued me – too up themselves.
According to the Militant Red Pill men, however, a woman only seeks out a “beta male” if she wants his money (“alpha fux/beta bux”). Their life experience is so limited that women who work and have their own incomes, and intend to continue working, don’t exist.
One of the many reasons a woman should marry young – assuming she wants to marry at all – is that her husband will always see her as she was when they married. Cameron Diaz no longer has that option.
The beautiful and brilliant Condaleeza Rice, who is much older than Diaz, no longer has that option either, but she doesn’t seem bothered about it in the slightest.
I offer you these simple yet valuable insights and you won’t take them. lol.
Well, you’d strongly prefer to date Bradley Cooper. Fact is, most women wouldn’t date any waiter regardless of what he looks like.
The typical man would much prefer to date the waitress that looks like Cameron Diaz.
You can reject this knowledge if you wish but you may as well command water to flow uphill.
No idea why anyone should take your advice. The fact that we don’t shows our experience tells of that while you may speak for yourself, there are men out there we like, who aren’t like you. I daresay you’re right if we wanted one like you though. But luckily we don’t.
“Fi and I understand these differences, having picked up a lot of knowledge over the years on various Red Pill blogs.” … that’s an elite reliable “knowledge” source 🙂
that’s an elite reliable “knowledge” source
When it comes to male psychology, it is the gold standard. The information Red Pill blogs offer is not readily available elsewhere.
Without this information, a woman is at the mercy of all sorts of misinformation and disinformation about male psychology.
“not readily available elsewhere”?
I need to reassess my “tactics”. I just spend time with men as individuals and learn from them that way.
Logging out now. Am beginning to feel somewhat disturbed.
“It has helped me enormously in my flirting with them” …. something kind of sad in this. Maybe I’m deluded? I don’t know. And naive too? Just being myself has always gone okay for me. I get scared when I can’t relate to my own gender.
Hmmmm. Maybe it says more about what you understand think flirting to be? Personally I think it is about making yourself charming and pleasant company with looking good. To everyone. it is a peculiarly British/American thing that we often associate flirting with sex instead.
Ah but you didn’t say “everyone”, you said “them”, specifically,
“However in amongst the dross you do pick up helpful info on what makes (normal) men tick and what they like in women. It has helped me enormously in my flirting with them …”. I just don’t understand why a grown woman (a teenager maybe – perhaps I’ve misjudged your age/experience) would need these kinds of guidelines.
And no, I don’t associate flirting with sex.
just to add: let’s be real here, flirting is however mostly about making ourselves feel (sexually) attractive in regard to others, so I don’t see the issue in associating it with sex. Because it is.
Maybe it is to you.
Here’s an example of what I’ve learned – men like feminine women. It helps me in my work, when I’m relating to men in my team, that if I tailor the way I interact with them differently to how I interact with women, I get better results. I do not relate to both sexes in the same way. Obvious? You’d think so.
So the flirting tips you garnered online are for plantonic relationships? That’s not how you explained it in your original post.
Regardless, the point I originally wanted to make it that I find it sad that women don’t feel confident and assured enough in themselves to just be themselves in their search for love.
Oh gawd, time to log out. I’m having 18th century flashbacks.
“men like feminine women. It helps me in my work, when I’m relating to men in my team, that if I tailor the way I interact with them differently to how I interact with women, I get better results.”
“I do not relate to both sexes in the same way. Obvious? You’d think so.”
That contradicts what you said earlier about flirting not being associated with sex for you. If you’re using flirting and feminine charms in your workplace to get “results” out of your male colleagues, this is about sex. Sex that most likely doesn’t happen but it’s in the air. I don’t know why I’m surprised by what you’re saying. In every job I’ve had there has been a woman who acts this way. It may work superficially at times but it’s not real respect. In the background it was noticed and found to be amusing.
If you’re using flirting and feminine charms in your workplace to get “results” out of your male colleagues, this is about sex. Sex that most likely doesn’t happen but it’s in the air. I don’t know why I’m surprised by what you’re saying. In every job I’ve had there has been a woman who acts this way. It may work superficially at times but it’s not real respect.
Fi is talking about appreciating and undersatnding cultural differences, not “using sex” to get ahead. If you had a team that was made up of 1/2 Indians and 1/2 Americans would you use the same management techniques with the Indians as you would the Americans? Some people would, but that doesn’t make it effective.
This principle isn’t even confined to gender and country of origin. It also applies to personality type. A wise manager understands that different resources require different management approaches and uses that knowledge to maximize each team member’s effectiveness. Managers who do this (and they are rare indeed) are the most charming of people.
I should also add, understanding that there are differences between male and female psychology is quite countercultural in today’s world. Fi and I understand these differences, having picked up a lot of knowledge over the years on various Red Pill blogs.
Thanks Autumn. Exactly.
Autumn
The beautiful and brilliant Condaleeza Rice, who is much older than Diaz, no longer has that option either, but she doesn’t seem bothered about it in the slightest.
That was random.
What do you think was up when Condoleezza (note the spelling) referred to George Dubya Bush as “my husband?”
What do you think was up when Condoleezza (note the spelling) referred to George Dubya Bush as “my husband?”
Dr Rice was Bush’s closest adviser. They had an MMSL Captain-First Mate relationship, albeit in the workplace.
Moreover the Red Pill brigade would refer to George as her “situational alpha.”
Mike, I bet you are a Republican!
Thanks for bringing me up to speed, Fi : )
I can’t relate to any of this (thankfully). Men in my circle tend to be drawn to a woman’s thoughts and complexities, as well as her looks. Not sure why it’s different here, maybe because I live in a more educated area or those are the people I choose to associate with. I’ve heard from more than one man that he quickly tired of the haaaawt girl when she offered nothing to stimulate his mind.
I know – in real life I’ve never met a man like that either – nor would I want to.
But they are basically Mike, So if you take note of what he says you’ve got the gist of it.
I find it sad that women don’t feel confident and assured enough in themselves to just be themselves in their search for love.
It has nothing to do with lack of confidence. It has to do with self-improvement and showing respect for the male point of view.
One analogy is this: if your strategy in a job interview and workplace is to “just be yourself” you will likely not succeed.
With that said, if just “being yourself” (without any consideration for self-improvement or male attraction triggers) is working well for you in your personal life, then by all means, continue that strategy. If however you want to interact more successfully with men, you are at a grave disadvantage if you don’t take into consideration male/female gender difference.
Ask yourself this: “Do I like it when a man meet my needs by treating me the way I want to be treated?” If the answer is “yes,” then ask yourself “How do men like to be treated?”
Totally agree. I mean I can do my own DIY, have brought up 2 kids on my own, always buy my round of drinks, totally supported myself financially for my entire adult life, and I can still be feminine. Personally I like the fact that when I am out with blokes I know they step in front of me to open doors for me and find me a chair to sit on and take my jacket from me. It doesn’t make me less capable, but it does make me feel feminine, and they like doing it. I’ve never articulated any of this to them – it just seems like the more feminine I act the more gallant they become. I think women who convince themselves that men and women are the same are doing themselves a disservice but that’s their choice.
Fi
What I have learnt from this though, and I think it is unintentional, is the power that women must have if refusal to bestow attention/sex of a man brings them to this. It means I flirt even more now.
Delusional. As you’ve raised two kids your flirting will be about as effective as hunting a rhino with a squirt gun. You might ask yourself why the blokes play along with your fantasies.
Troll.
Fi,
He’s finally shown his true colours. He is a pr*ck and best ignored going forward.
“When people show you who they are, believe them.”
Maybe it’s us that’s wrong? No, I get asked out a lot (although I rarely go). Well by ‘lot’ I mean maybe 5-6 times a year. You?
Maybe it’s us that’s wrong? No, I get asked out a lot (although I rarely go). Well by ‘lot’ I mean maybe 5-6 times a year. You?
I am in a LTR with a great man, but prior to that I got asked out a lot, Since I don’t have a wedding or engagement ring I still get hit on when I am out alone. I don’t have kids , but I honestly don’t think it makes that much of a difference.
FWIW I know several very good men who married single mothers, both successful tradesmen and professionals and masculine men, and who in most instances raised the kids as their own. Men who love women don’t really think too hard about “is she a single mother,” at least not in my experience. And no, I’m not just saying that to make you feel better. I just honestly don’t think it’s much of an issue. If she was a workshy entitlement princess it might be different (and in that instance I would be sympathetic to the man’s point of view).
ah Mike, you wreck my head but thanks for the laugh,
“your flirting will be about as effective as hunting a rhino with a squirt gun”
funny
I’m disappointed – it’s one thing not agreeing with me, but what you’re doing here is joining in a bit of baiting another woman by a man. In effect encouraging a misogynist by laughing at his derogatory jokes about women, because let’s face it that’s the ‘joke’ isn’t it – that a woman who has children is unattractive to men which is why her flirting is useless. And that having had kids she has no value to a man. I’m saying men like women to be feminine and equal. i wouldn’t be laughing at some put insult a man delivers to a woman.
you two are a bundle of tag team contradictions. if you hear something you don’t agree with, instead of putting forward a decent argument you move the goalposts and resort to playground name calling. that seems worse than a bit of valid humour.
i’m not joining in “a bit of baiting another woman”. mike had an opinion on her situation. that’s what this whole blog is about. he’s actually staying on topic.
the owner of this blog has also written about her own hunting rhino with a squirt gun situation but i suppose because that opinion comes from a fellow woman’s mouth, it’s okay.
i don’t agree with much mike says but actually think he’s spot on in this instance. older women with children are less desirable to many men, not all but definitely many. pop over to plankton’s blog for a reality check. no flirting tips from a red pill website are going to superceed this fact.
Plankton’s blog? Reality check? Better check that one out then 🙂
you hear something you don’t agree with, instead of putting forward a decent argument you move the goalposts and resort to playground name calling.
The problem isn’t with the substance of what Mike is saying per se but rather with the bullying methods which Fi described perfectly. His rotten behaviour, not his opinions, invite a critical evaluation of same.
As regards women with children being “less desirable” – here are my thoughts:
I don’t have kids myself but if I were single and a man expressed that preference I would not date him, for it indicates that he sees women as a commodity and I could not respect a man who thought this way. I realise my rejection would be no skin off such a man’s nose, since so many women out there likewise see men as commodities.
this i have to hear more on. how does a man saying he’d prefer not to date a women with children convert to him seeing women as a commodity?
To be honest, I wasn’t looking when my kids were younger so can’t comment, but now they have grown up and left home (which means I am old), the fact that I am old, and a mother seems to have no bearing whatsoever on men. Honestly the ones I know that ask me out know I have kids, and the ones who I don’t know but make a point of getting into conversation with me prior to asking me out don’t know I have kids. It could be that I move in circles where the men are all nice, and some of them have children themselves and the ones that don’t have any don’t seem to care less that I do. But men that aren’t interested in me self select themselves out. And I just don’t encounter men who would stay away from women because they have children, or because they are older. In fact one of the reasons I like men so much (generalisation here) is that they are so….pragmatic, and tolerant, and realistic. They seem to accept the ageing in women and our frailties much better than we do with them. They seem to want nothing more than regular sex, and someone to be nice to them and care for them.
And maybe because I’m older, but I genuinely do think people become nicer as they age (we mature and become kinder) and I only encounter men like Mike on blog sites – and they are the minority of men there too.
I think the difference isn’t so much that you’re moving in nicer circles (still a possibility though) but that your children aren’t children anymore. most men wouldn’t have any issue with grown up children, simply because they are grown up and the 24-7 responsibility and adjusted lifestyle for children is no longer something that needs to be factored into the relationship.
how does a man saying he’d prefer not to date a women with children convert to him seeing women as a commodity?
People that have a checklist of boxes to tick tend to be more interested in primarily getting their own needs met than in a relationship of mutual give and take. It’s like women expressing a preference for tall and athletic men; I would likewise advise any single man to avoid a woman who expressed such a preference.
This kind of thinking is just not my cup of tea. You may feel quite differently.
I would see a huge difference between a physical (and bigger picture inconsequential) physical attribute like tall and a completely different life situation such as having children. I don’t think you can compare the two. There is a huge difference between the lifestyles of people with and without children. I won’t go into details because it’s self evident. A man saying he doesn’t want to date a woman with children, particularly one he has no relationship on any sense with as yet, is not rejecting the woman. He’s saying I don’t want that kind of lifestyle and I think that’s okay. Much worse for all parties involved if a man or indeed a woman pretends to be happy with something they don’t really want.
Because this isn’t a man expressing a preference not to date women with children – ” Delusional. As you’ve raised two kids your flirting will be about as effective as hunting a rhino with a squirt gun. You might ask yourself why the blokes play along with your fantasies.” – as derogatory about women with kids. He is saying that a woman with children isn’t attractive to men in general, she’s delusional if she thinks she is, and men are playing along with her fantasies.
I only encounter men like Mike on blog sites
Same here. I’ve only ever met them online. I keep in mind however that Militant Red Pill men feel they are under siege like Communists during the Red Scare and as such have to travel incognito, ergo any man I meet could possibly be one of them but just hiding it 🙂
I had a couple of close brushes a few years back. On two separate occasions I was approached by a man at a literary event and invited to go for a drink after. Both the men were a good bit older than me and successful retired professionals (very braggy) and bachelors – not a problem as I like older men. The thing that was interesting was that both negged me incessantly once we sat down in the bar. I don’t know whether they were Red Pill or just recent graduates of a Mystery seminar, but needless to say I never went on a second date to find out. If I hadn’t been Red Pill aware I would not have understood what was going on and would have thought I did something to bring on this strange behaviour (the negging).
There is a huge difference between the lifestyles of people with and without children.
This is my point exactly. “Lifestyle” is a primary consideration just like when buying a car. The only aspect of a man’s “lifestyle” that concerns me is one that reflects on his character, and being a parent per se does not do this.
Your way of thinking is a practical one and I’m not saying you are wrong , but it’s just not a way of relating to people that I agree with. I am probably an outlier in this regard.
I know – begging – 🙂 when I had that done to me, before I knew about it, I just thought he was incredibly rude. 🙂 Now I take it that he is attracted to me and trying very hard to attract me to him. it doesn’t work though – I much prefer nice blokes 🙂
Duh – damn spell check – NEGGING not BEGGING
Fi
that a woman who has children is unattractive to men which is why her flirting is useless. And that having had kids she has no value to a man.
It’s not only the kids, dear, it’s your age. And the mileage.
How would you expect me to respond to the following anyway?
Fi
It has helped me enormously in my flirting with them – something that would make them really mad if they thought that was what women did with the information they picked up as they generally think we’re pretty evil and manipulative anyway. I don’t like to disappoint them either
They seem to want nothing more than regular sex, and someone to be nice to them and care for them.
Yup. It’s amazing how far basic kindness, nurturing, and sensuality will go with so many men today who have been in bad relationships where they were starved of this, that is if the man fundamentally likes women (Militant Red Pill men do not).
Even where they’ve been in good relationships though – they don’t ever talk about missing 5 times a night swinging from the chandelier sex. Instead they talk about having someone to share their interests, someone to talk to in the evenings when they get in from work. They talk about loneliness and having no purpose and nobody to talk to about the things that matter to them. And nobody to show their latest DIY job to, or show off their cooking skills to. and feeling they aren’t understood and they have no-one on their side. Why they talk to me like this I don’t honestly know – maybe because they are older and more open and have less to prove – but they do. And that’s why I really like them.
They talk about loneliness and having no purpose and nobody to talk to about the things that matter to them….feeling they aren’t understood and they have no-one on their side. Why they talk to me like this I don’t honestly know
Several years ago I spent almost an entire workday in a coffee shop with a senior manager whose mother had died the previous week in a car crash. A fifteen break turned into 6+ hours. He basically told me his life story, the overarching feature of which was a very domineering, controlling father who did everything to undermine his son’s self-esteem and sense of well being from the time he could first talk. The mother eventually left the father but she could never really compensate for the mental abuse her son had endured, This man eventually went on to succeed professionally on his own and look like a normal UMC man, but the absence of a father left a gaping hole. I still think of him today.
That experience underscored for me how horrible some men could be to other men, including to their own sons. This is another reason why the Red Pill is so ridiculous. It simply does not acknowledge most forms that human suffering takes, In fact the Red Pill would find a way to blame the mother for this situation, no doubt.
Fi
They seem to want nothing more than regular sex, and someone to be nice to them and care for them.
So, bitter babe, time to wrap up the blog as Fi has provided the answer you seek.
Regular sex plus a pleasant demeanour plus sammiches plus housekeeping. Also you get to pay your own bills as you don’t need a man to do dat. This is revolutionary stuff and so much better than what women had to put up with in the bad old days.
I’m afraid that’s only for NICE men.
And meanwhile back in the real world (away from Red Pill Land) nice men (so-called “white knight beta schlubs”) also get the very best hotmonkeysex 😉
Hahahahaha.
I’m afraid that’s only for NICE 50 year old men who waited 30 years for the opportunity.
FIFY.
Oh and I’ll be happy with a simple thank you as a reward for facilitating this productive discussion.
Ruh roh. Banned I am. lol.
I know I’m coming in at the end of the conversation here … but just last night my friend commented on how many men seem to gravitate toward women with children. Instant family, instant meaning. Strange, how we all see things differently. Anyway, I think I’ll stay away from those ‘red pill’ sites. I have no desire to infuse myself with the rigid resentment of people who’ve likely done little to no work on themselves. I’m curious about how that helped some of you flirt more ‘effectively’, but not curious enough to subject myself to the ugliness. Not when there’s the occasional Mike who shows up to remind us how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all.
Some of them are alright though but basically from the articles and comments you get a clearer understanding of what men are actually like when they are talking to each other, rather than to women. I find that quite interesting.
I had to step away and stop reading in the Manosphere for almost a year because it was starting to give me a distorted view of the world. I began to think that all men hated women, and that no man would be interested in me simply because I was “too old.” This started to have a negative effect on my relationships with men I like and respect.
When I actually started meeting men IRL for the purposes of dating, however, the opposite of what the Manosphere told me would happen happened. Their hypothesis was proven wrong.
With all that said, I think much of my success in the SMP/MMP is down directly to the fact that I understand male psychology a lot better than a woman who has never entered the fray. It is sort of ironic that I have the men of the Manosphere to thank for my great relationships with men.
These men love to see women like me suffer and fail. If they actually knew that their lunatic rantings were benefiting women they consider worthless, who were willing to parse the information they provide with an open mind, they would have marked all their blogs “private” from the get-go. Because they don’t believe women possess rational faculties however they thought that this could happen probably never occurred to them.
Agree with what you’ve said here. Some of them think we are governed by our ‘hindbrain’ (the reptilian bit that governs the central nervous system and the like that is a hangover from the days pre human evolution). And although they don’t believe the thickest man is more intelligent than the cleverest woman, they do think that across the board men are more intelligent than women. and more loyal, and braver, and more self sacrificing. In general men are superior human beings. 😉
But in amongst the dross there are little gems of information and some ok blokes and you can find out a lot about men from these sites because women rarely get to see or hear what men say to each other when talking about topics that matter to them in an all male environment. It’s a bit like eavesdropping on an all male club.
But like Autumn, I found it distorted my view of men when I did it too frequently, but now I dip in and out as and when I feel like it.
The thing is, like any gathering there are lunatics, people without social skills, and nice folk. Redpill sites are no different. But after a while you can recognise certain language styles and concepts that appear on them so when they appear here (like Mike’s reference to women being good for making ‘sammichs’) you know where ideologically they are coming from. And another interesting contradiction is that far from arguing rationally, these men litter their conversational statements with provocations – like ‘dear’ or other patronising name calling, insult us by telling us we’re ugly and old and no use and unwanted and do it all in a provocative way, not to have a rational discussion – but to wind us up which when they are successful reinforces their poor opinion of women.
They do it on the redpill sites whenever a woman is foolish enough to comment and not agree with them, or even when she agrees but says she isn’t personally like that herself. She then propels herself straight into a special contempt called NAWALT (not all women are like that) where the response is that they are. They are drearily predictable then when they turn up elsewhere (like Mike here) and do it some more and women who have not been exposed to the redpill sites actually TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY and consider what they say and respond rationally. Because when you do, believe me they don’t think you’re somehow not like the rest of us insane irrational disloyal old ugly women – no they think you’re NAWALT i.e. exactly the same but deluded. And they like nothing better than getting women to undermine other women – it just demonstrates how disloyal and competitive we women are to one another.
Oh I never take them seriously. I usually can’t get past the first few sentence or two before the “blah blah blah” impulse kicks in and I can’t bother to keep reading. I have a pretty fine b.s. detector!
You’ve described their methods perfectly, Fi. This is exactly how they operate and yes, their behaviour is filled with contradictions. Their tactics are every bit as manipulative in shutting down debate as the so-called Anti-Male Shaming Tactics they decry. And they want women to “submit to their leadership?” LOL. Masculine men simply DO NOT act like this.
They have nothing to offer young men, not even MGTOW, because if they were truly indifferent to women they would ignore them not parachute into blogs like this in order to ridicule and insult them. Which just goes to show how much power the supposedly “inferior gender” actually has over them. At least Mark Minter had enough intellectual honesty and self-awareness to admit that he didn’t want MGTOW, and for this I respect him.
They alienate everyone who wants to improve relations between the genders by ensuring no one takes them seriously apart from themselves. In this regard they are the perfect servants of the status quo (“feminine imperative”) and of everything that they claim to hate.
“if they were truly indifferent to women they would ignore them not parachute into blogs like this in order to ridicule and insult them. Which just goes to show how much power the supposedly “inferior gender” actually has over them.” Spot on. 🙂
That’s why they write all the time about how evil women are, how morally and intellectually inferior we are, how to get us into bed, how to keep us from running off with someone else, how to treat us, how they hate feminists, that they should never marry, never take on another man’s kids, secretly get vasectomies so they can’t be trapped by women, and lastly the MGTOW movement (men going their own way) where they refuse to get involved with women full stop (at least I THINK that’s what it’s about?) etc etc.
Let’s face it, women have power – it’s just that most of us don’t realise it – and some men hate us when we don’t grant them attention/sex/whatever. What they don’t quite get is that the Betas (the ones they deride who aren’t like this) are actually the ones that get the women because they are nice to us. Redpill sites – entertaining, scary and informative in equal measure. Worth poking about in for a laugh and to get a better understanding of what is going on their redpill minds. And to learn to recognise the type should you ever be unfortunate enough to encounter a redpill man in real life.
Fi,
Yep. Agree with everything.
For the readers here who don’t understand why a woman would bother with the manosphere, here is an example of how some of the comments (this one from Rollo’s blog, Rational Male) can really help in understanding men:
I am very demonstrative. Need to touch and be touched, to get positive feedback, etc. Thought that was what marriage was about. Support each other no matter what. My sons’ mother is the quite opposite. After 27 years I still have to remind myself to stay back and not hug and kiss her every moment that I am with her! I am trying to get the touchy feely stuff down to at the most 3 times daily. Goodbye kiss. Welcome back kiss, and good night kiss (with assorted ass grabbing).
Sometimes it feels like my soul is being ripped out when I want so badly to hold her, but force myself not to. This red pill shit is the hardest thing I have ever taken on.
Fascinating, I may just have to venture in after all. But not until I gather my girlfriends so we can read and discuss together!! Wish I could meet you all for coffee and internet perusal ; )
So why does this guy ^^ need to restrain himself from touching? What is this ‘red pill tactic’ he’s trying to adhere to? From my own experience, too much touch becomes irritating which results in my need for More space. Maybe that’s what he’s working on.
Nah. I imagine that he is following redpill instruction on how to stop his woman running off with someone else. We are all naturally treacherous and always looking to trade up all the time. So blokes have to play these elaborate games to keep us in check and stop us from doing it. 🙂
Having said that there is an element of truth in the red pill stuff – no woman wants a weedy drip of a man. What I think happened is that women are naturally attracted to confident take charge men, so the ones that aren’t like that follow a set of rules and behaviours to pretend they are to get and keep the woman. And this bloke is obviously wanting to receive and demonstrate more affection than he is allowed to by the redpill rules – he can’t look needy in anyway. alike `i said – the sites are very informative and men.
They teach that all women born after say 1950 are secretly repulsed by “nice men,” despite women’s claim to want one (“be nice, just be yourself” is considered bad dating advice) and that in a LTR niceness “kills attraction.” Ergo, the only way to hold on to a LTR with any woman (yes, AWALT according to them – without exception – see Fi’s explanation above about NAWALT) is to be either (a) naturally very dominant or (b) to “game” her (in essence, manipulating her by adopting very dominant traits) like she is a trained dog or horse. There is a whole mini-industry devoted to teaching men “game” in the dating arena and in marriage to counter what they call “female hypergamy.”
If a woman claims she does not like to be gamed they will claim she is lying. If a man goes onto one of their blogs and claims that he doesn’t game his wife and that they are very close and very happy, they will dismiss him as a naiive beta schlub whose marriage is about to implode when she leaves him out of the blue for the hot drug dealer/ex con/rock guitarist down the road, or that she has been having affairs with such men behind his back and only stays with her doting husband because he provides her with money (“beta bucks.”)
As Fi says, there is a lot of truth in what they say. Women are drawn to confident, independent, self-directed men. What they fail to understand, however, is that a lot of this hypergamy is a result of culturual conditioning. Just as self-aware men learn to become tolerant in actually listening to what a woman says when she speaks, women can quash their hypergamous tendencies once they become aware of them. They deny this of course because they don’t believe anywomen are rational and moral beings – they believe they are more akin to brute animals (dog or horse).
I have a strong preference for sentimental, sensitive, emotionally expressive men. The Red Pill says I am lying to myself of course, and that men who possess these traits along with strong alpha don’t exist (the so-called “manicorn.”) . As a result of studying Red Pill I make a habit of relaying to my S.O. (who is very sensitive and expressive – the Red Pill brigade would call him a “beta schlub”) how much these traits please me, and how much they increase my attraction for him. He has remarked before to me that “most women don’t like nice guys.” I make sure that he knows that I am atypical in this respect. The Red Pill don’t fully understand female psychology – they are right to an extent about female hypergamy, but it is a case of “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” in that they draw wrong conclusions from their partial knowledge.
The obvious solution is not “game” but rather (a) find women who are self-aware about their own needs and who have quashed their hypergamy or (b) find ways to educate women so they can make a conscious choice to do this. Instead they just say AWALT, which is why they are all so miserable in their relatinoships. Some of the single ones (PUAs and plate spinners) actually brag about how feminized they have become by learning “game” – things like their girlfriends buying them presents, women throwing themselves at them sexually, refusing to hold a date or girlfriends coat, refusing to open doors or pay for a date, etc. And these are things they are “proud of” and consider to be “masculine.”
As I said earlier, they are actually slaves of the culture they claim to despise but don’t realise it.
As Fi says, there is a lot of truth in what they say. Women are drawn to confident, independent, self-directed men. What they fail to understand, however, is that a lot of this hypergamy is a result of culturual conditioning.
I should have been more clear that being drawn to confident, independnet, self-directed men is not the same as hypergamy, although it is a subset of it. These are natural attraction triggers for a woman, but wanting a man who treats her badly is not – it is a result of cultural conditioning. So when I talk about quashing hypergamous tendencies, I am talking about women’s responsibility to not be drawn in by a**hole behaviour.
The most attractive men are both nice guys who possess masculine leadership traits. These are manicorns. Generally speaking, manicorns are made not born i.e. a woman’s innate feminity will draw out the innate masculinity in any “nice guy.” The Red Pill brigade don’t have a clue about how this works in practice, and will deny that it has even ever happened. Happily married/attached men know otherwise.
This is my thinking on it – I think when girls are young they are attracted to the shitty blokes. We’ve all done it. It is often because we are testing out our place in the world and trying to work out how attractive we are (will I be the girl who gets him to change his ways?) or else we think we see another side to them or because as bad boys they do slightly risky exciting things that are fun at a time when we are testing the boundaries ourselves. If they are too dangerous though we back off. As we get older and wiser though we realise that they are just shits and so we avoid them. So redpill thinking could work for teenage boys.
Older women however are more complex and while we want a confident man who we can talk to who isn’t weedy and drippy (or maybe that’s just me) the redpill guys think these are mutually incompatible – you are either a nice guy/ bloke who is themselves and can’t get women (or as Autumn points out yours is going to leave you anyway soon) OR you are a red pill guy that gets the women. They can’t grasp that we want nice guys who are themselves but who are confident. They don’t seem to think you can be masculine and confident at the same time as being nice and open.
The way I see it is a man who is nice and doesn’t pretend to be something he isn’t is appealing to a woman and consequently becomes confident as he grows up which in turn makes him successful with women and grow in confidence. He doesn’t have anything to prove. The fact that these blokes need rules to appear confident demonstrates to me that they are singularly unsuccessful with women. They have no introspection and (being men) approach the problem of not getting women as a complex problem that has a solution that will produce a set of rules that can be applied in all scenarios. Quite bizarre really. For example, they may meet women and never get a date that they were hoping for, or get a date but not get a second one. They call these women who back off from the date ‘flakes’ and take it as an example of women’s immaturity and unreliability and so up the red pill stuff even more. They fail to even examine their role in this and consider that maybe when they were doing their ‘Negging’ (finding something to criticise in a woman to reduce her self confidence and self esteem – another red pill tactic) they came across as unpleasant and a bit of a loser. Because that’s the aim behind Negging – try to shake a woman’s confidence so that you appear appealing to her and hopefully she won’t think she can get better than you. Again bizarre!
Personally I think they are right though in their belief that women want masculine men – I do anyway. While I am happy to do my own DIY stuff etc, I can’t respect a man (so couldn’t sleep with him) if he was incapable of doing it too. And I don’t want another child that needs looking after i.e. him.
Like I said before – read the sites as a) it illustrates how important women are to men b) how they think and what’s important to them c) a tiny bit of insight into what they have picked up about women and d) for a laugh.
Just remembered another tactic some of the more extreme* ones advocate – get a woman young, ideally before she is 22, and ideally a virgin so that she doesn’t ever have the chance to evaluate you against another man and find you lacking.
Another extreme* tactic is to prevent the woman working so she a) has no money of her own and can’t leave you and b) can’t meet any other men to compare you unfavourably to and leave you for.
(*not all sites are this extreme though)
Again … fascinating! Thanks for the education : ) And I agree, they’re missing the point that masculinity/confidence has nothing to do with being macho. I, for one, find over-confident macho men to be a turn-off. These ideas/rules feel so one-dimensional, not applicable to what a real relationship between two complex human beings is supposed to be at all! Not a surprising outcome I suppose, given they’re the product of the more linear sex whose corpus callosums are smaller, thereby preventing much flow or integration of information from Both sides of the brain!!
While illuminating, there’s something very sad about all this. I can’t imagine that any relationship these men might find themselves in would ever feel genuinely good … or safe. All this effort they’re investing to create a secret rule-book. Why not just enter into these relationships honestly and figure out how to make it work? True, nobody (male or female) wants a partner who is acting out their unmet dependency needs from childhood, so why not get therapy instead, to address those issues and then come to the dating scene as a more whole, integrated adult?
Yes, but….they are partially correct in what they say as Autumn and I agree. We have learnt a lot about blokes from reading them talking to each other and hearing what they are saying, And the manosphere covers a range of sites, written by and for a range of men. Some of them are good. Autumn and I are talking specifically about the extreme ones and what they think about women. But let’s face it they aren’t women so we need to recognise that they won’t behave like us. I have found the sites invaluable and while I think worse of some men, I also really really values others that I now have a better understanding of and relate better to. Because let’s face it men are just lovely really. And they have some fantastic qualities.
What a nice comment – I wish the decent guys on those sites could read that : )
Fi – tell me again, what is the name of the site? I can’t seem to find it here. Thanks. I wonder if most men learn about these sites/concepts early in life, from other men? How did I get to be 52 and not know anything about it??
There are a lot of sites – I don’t have the extensive in depth knowledge of them all like Autumn does, but Privateman is one of the more rational ones, and M3 is another one I’ve looked at and Atholl Kay – you can just google them. All sites have links to more sites. Read enough of them and you get to learn a few things like how they think about women, how important women are to them, what they value in a woman, the affect a woman can have on a man, and what men are like talking to each other. The manosphere is a huge movement – there are probably about a hundred sites (or maybe even more) and they’ve spawned dating advice books too and are becoming more mainstream.
Autumn can probably advise you better than me on where the best sites are but you could start with the ones I’ve pointed out 🙂
I wonder if most men learn about these sites/concepts early in life, from other men?
No, that’s why the manosphere exists – because they were all brainwashed with lies about male/female relationships ergo the metaphor of the “Red Pill” (exiting the matrix, which they refer to as the Blue Pill).
How did I get to be 52 and not know anything about it??
Same way as the guys – the culture changed in the 1960s and this information, which used to be mainstream knowledge, was replaced by a new paradigm. Don’t feel bad – I was over 40 before I found it, but am I ever grateful. It has certainly changed my life radically and overall for the better, and I really can’t imagine myself “not knowing” this stuff.
Just as Fi says there are tons of sites – the number is probably in the hundreds. The manosphere is a networking movement so there is no “Manosphere Central,” but they talk about the “Three Rs” meaning Roissy, Rollo (Rational Male), and Roosh (Return of Kings). M3s “Incel” post is considered a manosphere classic. If you google any of those names it will get you in the front door then you take it from there and start clicking around. The consensus is it takes most people about a year of reading to get their heads fully around the concepts. For me it took probably 6 months.
One of the most accessible writers is Ian Ironwood. I don’t usually read Rollo, Roosh, or Roissy’s posts – I just go straight to the comments section. IMO the meat of the manosphere is found in the comments section. The Three Rs get a good cross-section of commenters i.e. not everyone thinks alike.
The blog I read the most regularly is probably Dalrock.
Athol Kay is very good but he is sort of a standalone and I wouldn’t consider him mainstream manosphere because he seems to actually like women 😉
You need to use caution and realise that some of the stuff will turn your stomach but with that said, even on those sites that do that at times (such as M3 – Fi, take a look at his recent post about video cameras and sex) you will learn A LOT. Private Man is good clear writer too, but also good for a laugh since he is (or was?) trying to monetize by running red pill dating seminars – fair enough but he doesn’t have a girlfriend or at least didn’t last time I checked yet he’s always talking about “masculine frame” lol. Once a commenter on Private Man said something like “If any woman over 35 is single there is definitely something wrong with her” and many of the others agreed – I wanted to jump in and say, “Then why is the blog admin trying to make approaches to defective women?” hahah. These guys are full of contradictions!
If I have time I may put up a placeholder blog just to record some of the commentary fi and I have written here about the manosphere before it gets completely lost in the comments, because I feel the information is extremely important for ALL women. Fi if I do this would you let me know if I can cut and paste your contributions? I’ve learned a lot from discussing this with you – the manosphere is my guilty pleasure and I don’t discuss it IRL lol.
Sorry – forgot to close quotes at the top 😦
About Ian Ironwood – he is excellent on “girl game” (male attraction triggers). Athol Kay is also good. They are both classed broadly as “married game” bloggers (as opposed to PUA).
You will have to get past your initial visceral reaction of “OMG this is SOOOOOOOOOOO sexist!!!!” and just soldier on. Believe me, it is worth it.
Yep agree with everything! If Monica reads too and joins in the commenting we will probably find the sites pointing to us and slagging us off as they do like to police any criticism and get their knickers in a twist about stuff (eg the recent debacle over mark thingy and his claims). I’m surprised it hasn’t happened already to be honest 🙂
Fi and Autumn, If there’s really the payoff you claim, couldn’t you just re-post the really useful posts you’ve come across? I don’t think I could bear to stick my toes in the waters of the manosphere again.
My glancing contact with it makes me feel a) contaminated b) sad for the men on it and the women in their lives c) that life’s too short.
Zoe,
It’s just too vast to post an occasional link or article. Some of the most profound stuff is just found in the comments. Like I explained above, it takes a long time of reading to start to get your head around it before you can begin to reap the benefits.
Some women will get more out of it than others. It depends on whether you feel a need to crack the male code, so to speak. If a woman says “I have always found interactions with men confusing and sometimes baffling” or “I have no idea what men want or why the act the way they do sometimes,” or “what does she have that I don’t have?” she will benefit. If she is extremely happy with how she relates to men right now, and feels no need for improvement, then she probably won’t learn much.
I learned more in 6 months in the manosphere about men than I did the 40 years previous put together. My relationships with them improved vastly as a result.
If you spend say a weekend lurking and clicking around you will know in your gut whether the sphere has something to teach you.
I just remembered you Zoe from a previous thread – you are an outlier (a very independent type like Madonna or Carla Bruni who does well with men naturally), so I can understand why the manosphere wouldn’t hold much appeal.
🙂
Zoe – can’t disagree with you there. You need to wade through a lot of crap, and you do end up feeling demoralised, but you can come through the other side, battered and bruised, but strangely enlightened. The same principle that gets you out of bed and down the gym when you don’t want to go but you’re glad you did.
heheheh. Here;s what one of them looks like in the flesh -http://manboobz.com/2014/04/15/actual-video-footage-of-man-going-his-own-way/
And what looks like a fun site. Real shame I couldn’t get anyone as attractive as this 🙂
Yeah that’s a good site 🙂
Because it makes fun of them, however, it obscures the fact that the Manosphere arose in response to legitimate social problems, and just as importantly that it contains extremely valuable information about male-female relationships that isn’t really available elsewhere – especially for women!!!!!
AFAIK, there really is no forum for people like you and me who have a real love-hate with the manosphere (except maybe Purple Pill reddit, but I’m not even sure whether that fits the bill).
the Mark Minter thing. God they’re bonkers http://manboobz.com/2013/07/29/is-mark-minter-misogynistic-marriage-mocker-really-getting-married/
This is just one great, big case of sour grapes with a heaping side of snide and ugly thrown in to round things out. Ick.
oops, I meant to post this under your video post, Fi.
Yeah, he just comes off as an arrogant pr*ck with a massive ego.
Good men who have to deal with schm*cks like this in the business world cannot stand them and have to work around them. I’ve learned a lot over the years from watching men of character navigate egos like this successfully in the workplace.
The latest soap opera is even better – it involves Sunshine Mary, Lena S., Danny504 and Matt Forney.
http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-35132-post-703612.html
One comment by Lizard of Oz is really perceptive and dovetails with a lot of my own theories:
There is something that has often struck me about the men that are drawn to the “manosphere” both as writers and readers that seems relevant to some of the drama we’ve been seeing. I feel that disproportionately, these tend to be men who grew up in unstable families, and especially without a strong, reliable and loving father.
The reason such men are drawn to the manosphere is that, for better or worse, they were left to their own devices early on and had to try to find their way in life, and were often tossed about this way and that….
What characterizes these men is that they run very hot and cold in their relations to others, especially to other males. They tend to look for heroes and form strong attachments to men they admire; but they are also always on the lookout for betrayal and disillusionment.
I should add that the Sunshine Mary soap opera just goes to show how much the Manosphere resembles real life – a high degree of socializing, but a very small number of genuine friendships.
i think you’re right re male role models for boys to grow up fully functioning in the world. I’m going to read the link you’ve posted and get back to you 🙂
I think though the manosphere covers a range of man related things from good advice on how to do ‘manly things’ e.g. Danny’s recipes and improving sex and getting women (i.e. normal seeming blokes that may say things women don’t want to hear/know about) to the PUA ones (where the aim is just to pump and dump – and i’m not sure how successful these tactics would really be in real life anyway, but they consist mainly of lying to and misleading young girls who aren’t very wise about the world and going after as many as possible so that a small hit rate will still result in one or two lays. These require sociopathic personalities though) to the more extreme blokes like the one in the video where it just comes across as “he protesteth too much” and really is desperate for a women but if he can’t what he feels entitled to, he will hate us instead. Which is why Mike’s talk of happy wife, 2 degrees, high income etc is pretty unbelievable as he parrots back the red pill thinking about the wall, old and ugly unwanted women, we should get married young so by the time we are old and ugly our husbands won’t leave us as we have history with them. All red pill thinking.
Which is why Mike’s talk of happy wife, 2 degrees, high income etc is pretty unbelievable
Fi,
You missed it but on an earlier thread he admitted he was unhappily married and contemplating divorce. This explains why he hates women i.e. “My wife is a self-centered, domineering b*tch who doesn’t meet my needs” = “All women are self-centered domineering b*tches.”
He basically used you here at this blog as a whipping post for the anger he feels toward his wife. I think they all do this to an extent, and that the source of the misogyny is rooted in the anger they feel toward the important women in their lives who have failed them (wives, ex-wives, ex-girlfriends, mothers, grandmothers, sisters etc).
There is a lot of wisdom in the old adage that if you want to know a man’s character look at his relationship with his mother.
You’re totally right about looking at how men relate to the women in their lives, especially their mother. I knew a player who (once we got past him trying to get me) settled down and we had a more ‘friendly relationship. He did say he didn’t respect women and that he didn’t respect his mother. I’m sure though that if women don’t respect or like our fathers it has the potential to disrupt our relationships with men as we grow older too.
I couldn’t bear to read the whole thing but he’s right – they should be happy – hopeful, in fact – since she subscribes to the redpill philosophy!!
Thanks for your informative post, autumn! I visited one or two of those sites last night. Saw mostly predictable stuff (based on what you and Fi had shared) but it was definitely interesting. These guys are so rigid in their thinking! The combination of misogyny and working so hard to get a woman is curious. Is it just about sex??
Yes and no I think. Because sex is more than just sex to a man I think – it is validation too and tied in with self esteem. Reading the incel post it is clear it is not simply a physical relief or they wouldn’t be making such a fuss. I think women are the ones that men confide in, that make them feel better, that praise them and look after them and the lack of a woman is the lack of all these things. I think that’s why they want one so much and if they go without long enough it turns to anger sometimes and it is preferable to blame someone other than themselves. Certainly since I’ve grasped this (and not sure any men would agree with me) and treat blokes the way I do my son when he was little (that looks great, well done, i rely appreciate that, how clever of you, that looks very difficult to do, what do you advise etc etc) they seem to love it. YOu have to be subtle though to avoid coming across as patronising.
Agree 100%. I got to age 40 without understanding any of this stuff but now I do thanks for the Manosphere.
I think most women don’t understand any of this ergo their frustrating search for love. I really do believe male-female relationships would be transformed so much for the better if women en masse became fluent in Red Pill instead of taking “relationship advice” from Cosmo.
Like the idea of “neediness” – yes, men are turned off by “needy” women. Most women however thinks this meansno they are attracted by in-your-face “independecnce,” which the ARE NOT. They actually like female dependence, which differs from “neediness.” I learned all this from the Manosphere.
Because sex is more than just sex to a man I think – it is validation too and tied in with self esteem.
This is a really important point – a man’s sense of self-respect is central to his well-being, and it is tied very closely into sex and how the woman in his life relates to him, not just sexually but in all ways. Unlike women they don’t articulate these needs, so women don’t realise how to meet them because they don’t actually understand they exist (although they may sense it on some level).
Women think that men think the way they do, but they don’t. I’m as guilty of this as anyone in my Blue Pill days, but I simply did not have the information then to understand any of this.
Agree. That’s why they actually love opening doors for women, and finding you a chair etc. They love to treat you like a woman. And I really like it too. And you can do all this and act feminine without being a doormat. Honestly it’s amazing what a frock and a smile can do. I mean my friend and I both hang about with a bloke sometimes and he started off treating us exactly the same – doors held open as he walked in front, finding his seat and leaving us standing there to find our own etc etc, in effect just behaving towards us as he would to another bloke. However having grown up since my student days when that was ok and i would drink pints too, I now appreciate being treated differently. My friend wears no make up, drinks pints, only ever wears trousers – in effect she behaves like a bloke, just as I used to. Honestly I haven’t asked him to change anything at all, I have just demonstrated feminine characteristics (skirts, understated make up, nail varnish, long hair, pretty ear rings etc) and still been me, but now! he leaps in front of me to push open the door and let me walk ahead of him, when we go in somewhere he searches for a seat that he points out to me, he takes my jacket and looks for somewhere to hang it. And I still buy my rounds of drinks – I don’t exploit him – but I love being treated like this and the interesting thing is that (obviously it is only me he does this for not my friend) I didn’t ask him to, or even give any indication I wanted him too. He just seemed to spontaneously begin to do it himself and whereas my friend would knock him back I would smile and say thanks. That was all the encouragement he needed. I read a piece of research that examined 5 year old primary kids where the boys were let out of class first for lunch and then the girls were allowed out and ALL THE BOYS STOOD BACK WITHOUT PROMPTING TO ALLOW THE GIRLS TO GET SERVED FIRST. The discussion prompted by the research was where did boys learn this from – was in innate and their preferred treatment of girls or had they somehow been influenced.
“This is a really important point – a man’s sense of self-respect is central to his well-being, and it is tied very closely into sex and how the woman in his life relates to him, not just sexually but in all ways. Unlike women they don’t articulate these needs, so women don’t realise how to meet them because they don’t actually understand they exist (although they may sense it on some level).
Women think that men think the way they do, but they don’t.”
Have to re-post this as it is the crux of the whole thing.
Honestly I haven’t asked him to change anything at all, I have just demonstrated feminine characteristics
I have had very similar experiences. The main reason women fail in the SMP/MMP is that they do not grasp that ALL MEN CRAVE FEMININITY. They can’t get it from their mates – they can only get it from one place – from WOMEN. And FEMININITY is NOT the same thing as “I have female genitalia!” Yet so many women confuse the two.
That study you reference is very interesting. I suspect this is innate behaviour, not social conditioning. But acknowledging gender differences is not acceptable anymore – instead, gender is only a “social construct.” Women today are totally confused about all this and men just watch it all with bewilderment.
I think men and women are different and thank heavens for that. Being feminine is not the same as being oppressed. Like I said before I am definitely beyond the wall, have grown up kids and do my own DIY, earn my own money, have paid off my mortgage etc and don’t see putting on a frock and smiling at a bloke and praising him is the work of the devil and they seem to like it. 🙂
The combination of misogyny and working so hard to get a woman is curious. Is it just about sex??
It’s hard to know for certain but here is my theory:
As Fi pointed out already, the whole movement seems to be centered on women, which demonstrates how much power women have over them. Unlike women, men’s primary need vis a vis the opposite gender is for sex, but they also have emotional needs. Since these men have such unattractive personalities the inevitably are failures with women, ensuring they will rarely get their sexual needs met and NEVER their emotional needs, so in order to rationalise the failure, their collective hamster (google “rationalisation hamster”) tells them AWALT (i.e. completely self-centered, worthless, irrational brute animals). To face the truth – that women, like men, are a mixed bag, would require that they actually look at their own personality to determine whether some aspect of it is repelling women, but they lack that kind of self-awareness.
Even after they learn about female attraction triggers and learn “game” they are still failures with women, because their understanding of female attraction triggers is incomplete. As Fi noted above, if a woman rejects them she is a “flake,” and they NEVER consider whether the rejection might have something to do with his personality, because of course by definition he is a prize, as all Red Pill men are of course (lol) – yet if they go on a date and a woman says or does something they find unattractive and reject her, they are not “flaking” but just being completely rational. It is their giant hamsters that allow them to function collectively with such cognitive dissonance.
What I like about Mark Minter is his willingness to grow and change and admit he was wrong about some things – these are attractive qualities in anyone, whether male or female. Coupled with his high degrees of intelligence and passion (which were always apparent in his posts no matter how much his views annoyed me) probably has a lot to do with why Kate, a much younger woman, fell in love with him. She comes off as very sweet and thoughtful, and I suspect they will last as a couple.
I find it interesting that the feminist corollary to MGTOW is separatism, and if you have ever spent any time around Feminist separatists (as I have – and not all are lesbians) you will find that men are rarely mentioned. Some have a handful of men they consider “ok” but they truly are “woman-identified” and men really are not on their radar.
THis is a funny one – women’s perspective on red pill blokes complaints about women who don’t fancy them
http://manboobz.com/2014/04/10/amy-schumer-takes-on-nice-guys-with-hello-mlady/
I guess I’m doomed … even at this age, I’m still a tomboy. Through and through. Always have been and suspect I always will be. : /
Haven’t finished reading what you guys (ladies?) wrote, just enough to recognize and share my discouraging revelation, lol .. will be back later to finish reading. Thanks for sharing your wisdom!!
Monica,
“Tomboy” – that’s womanthink – it has nothing to do with this. You can have a PhD in chemical engineering, change your own oil, and play competitive sports and still be 100% feminine.
If you are heterosexual you can become feminine without altering your personality. If you want to significantly increase your value in the eyes of men and distinguish yourself from other women, this is how to do it. And you must do it for yourself first and foremost, to feel good about yourself.
As Fi notes a huge part of this – I swear – is simply appearance, which is HUGELY important to men. The behavioural stuff is not worth much to them if you don’t look feminine. Ditch the jeans, flats, chinos, polo shirts, t-shirts, baggy jeans, unisex shoes etc and start wearing dresses and if you are able to, heels, or at least nice flats with a low heel. If you are unhappy with your weight do what you need to lose weight. If your hair is short, unless you are very beautiful (i.e. think Marilyn Monroe or Princess Diana) grow it out to shoulder length or longer. and style it. Wear some makeup and earrings (even small, plain ones e.g. pearls or diamond studs).
“Feminine clothes” = anything a man doesn’t wear but avoid anything “trashy.”
Icons of feminine elegance: think Kate Middleton, Condoleezza Rice, Princess Diana, Jackie Kennedy, Princess Mary of Denmark. Note that all of these women almost always wear/wore dresses or skirts and heels, with occasional classy dress slacks. You have to find a look that works for your face and body type, however, e.g. If you have good legs play it up but if not you can camoflauge this be wearing opaque tights and boots with dresses if not too hot out.
NB: This is not about money – you can achieve this look shopping 90% at Target if you have a good eye.
There are lots of good style blogs – I like Une Femme (the scarf lady) and YLF (Angie Cox). Men however don’t care if you are fashionable (on trend, designer, etc), only if you look feminine.
The Red Pill blogs will show you how crazy men go when womem dress like this (and ALL men go crazy – not just Red Pill blokes) They just go nuts because they see it so rarely. It stirs their curiousity and makes them want to get to know you.
Jill Biden is also a fab dresser with a very overall feminine look. She is 60+ I believe.
Monica – it’s entirely up to you. I just like to play with it and do the things that I know blokes like and the results make me feel good. It’s not compulsory though. And i’m not changing me – It’s just the fancy wrapping because I like the results. You might not want them to open doors etc, but if you do then that’s the way to get them to do it. 🙂
Plus, as I’ve written here on another thread, if you want them to “like you for who you are” they are much more likely to pay attention to you and WANT to get to know you if you look this way. If you don’t, they tend to see you only as a sex/fwb target.
As Fi says it’s not compulsory; you might beat the system and find one who doesn’t care so much, but my experience is that male attention/interest skyrockets when you do this, and since dating is a numbers game why not boost the odds in your favour as much as you can? Then you can shortlist and pick the best man 🙂
Funny … where I live, this is how many women dress much of the time. I seem to stand out in my fleece sweatshirt, blue jeans and tennis shoes ; ) I’ll admit, I feel better about myself when I’m put together for work so will keep these ideas in mind. I put my foot down when it comes to dresses and heels tho’ – too much ‘girly-girl’ will surely make me wooden which while pretty, might repel the men in another way!!
Monica,
Some men are really into the outdoorsy type i.e. no makeup, short hair, likes to go hiking/camping/skiing, etc. If that’s who you are then I can understand you wouldn’t want to change because it would make you inauthentic. One strategy would be to wear more feminine sportswear(fitted t-shirts, bright colours, yoga pants etc), earrings, etc. and still from time to time dress up. Avoid baggy t-shirts.
You will however probably be best matched with a man who prefers the “tomboy” type of personality.
Thanks for your ideas autumn : ) I’d love to keep this discussion going but don’t know if this is the place to do so …