magic formulas
by rantywoman
I’ve come to believe that, outside of Sara Eckel, there’s nobody currently out there writing anything of real intelligence or worth about dating. This commenter sums it up pretty well:
Ali • 2 years ago
A big crop of these relationship experts are out there with trendy advice, acting like they’ve just solved the big mystery and they have some new and exciting breakthrough.
The reality is that the core of how to attract a compatible partner isn’t very jazzy. Basically, it boils down to finding someone where you both:
-Are mutually attracted to each other
-Have a foundation of common values
-Share common interests/sense of humor/ideas of what’s fun
-Respect each other
-Treat each other with courtesy and honesty
-Have common relationship goals
-Have solid self-esteem
Add in a dash of hard work and/or luck to find each other, and there’s your relationship advice. It’s hard to find all of those things at once, so it usually takes time and having some duds along the way, but there really isn’t some magic formula.
However, that doesn’t sell books, so that’s not what the “experts” talk about. Instead, they write a book about harnessing the power of your astrological sign to find a mate. Good grief.
thebitterbabe 
Here’s my first thought – you’re 44, why would you need dating advice?
Ali’s list of dating advice is mostly hogwash. If a woman takes this list (or anything like it) as her guideline and ends up happily coupled or married (whichever is her goal) by following it, she got lucky.
It never ceases to amaze me how little most women today, especially the highly-educated and highly-intelligent, seem to know about the male nature. If they put half as much time into learning about the male nature as they did their careers and hobbies, they would own the world of dating.
Sinead – good luck your first term at UL!
Thanks Autumn … I set up a blog to document my adventures and when I comment it’s using that as my default name … need to fix.
Looking at Ali’s list, it’s not that bad but I don’t think it’s all attainable either. To be honest, I don’t really believe in one person offering all that to another anymore. I’d happily settle for being attracted to the person (kind of a basic … otherwise, we’re back in platonic territory), being able to laugh and be honest together. God, if I could get those three, I’d be laughing (honestly and in lust!).
Sinead,
I think you are an outlier, and more independent than the average woman. You have a strong, infectious, go-getter type personality that comes through in your posts. So I don’t think the dating rules that work for you (particularly the emphasis on lust – lol) would apply successfully for 90% of women.
So when I say these are “bad/unhelpful dating rules,” I mean bad/unhelpful for 90% of women, not bad/unhelpful for ALL women.
My comments on the list:
-Are mutually attracted to each other
Autumn: Does Ali know the difference between “attractive for marriage/commitment/LTR” and “attractive for sex?”
-Have a foundation of common values
Autumn: Yes – this is good advice.
-Share common interests/sense of humor/ideas of what’s fun
Autumn: Common interests/hobbies are overrated. They are at best a secondary need. Most people should be able to meet in the middle.
-Respect each other
Autumn: This is redundant after “Have a foundation of common values” (which should include respect).
-Treat each other with courtesy and honesty
Autumn: Same as above.
-Have common relationship goals
Autumn: Does Ali have any idea how to successully discern a man’s relationship goals? Does she think it’s good strategy to put hers out on the table early on, or to ask directly what his are?
-Have solid self-esteem
Autumn: “Self-esteem” is a useless buzzword. It certainly isn’t on most men’s “wish list” for a dream woman. Does Ali have any idea what type of “confidence” most men find attractive in a woman?
I just re-read through the list. Much of the list very accurately describes the traits of a “good relationship” but tells a woman absolutely nothing about how to go about getting such a relationship.
In short, this isn’t “dating advice.” It’s a description of a successful relationship. If a woman learns to date successfully, she will end up with a relationship with most of the traits on Ali’s list.
that’s true Autumn. it’s a what not a how list.
thanks for the compliment on my personality Autumn … even if I do drive Ranty bananas 🙂 just poking fun Ranty!
hmmm … maybe my top three comes from having gone through a boring marriage and tricky divorce. it really does make you focus and narrow down the list. i’m also not looking for another marriage, just someone decent with a sense of humour who gives a shit about the things that matter and doesn’t give a shit about the things that don’t, someone independent (hang on … i’m going on a bit here now … feels like i’m writing a dating ad).
late 30s/40s single guys are also either looking to jump 100% into a first marriage (with a younger, baby producing woman, hey, it’s a buyers market) or to stay independent but have someone independent they care about floating above and through their life. i’d be well pleased if i met the latter but can understand the frustration (and grief) of women my age who are looking to marry.
just to also add that some of my independence comes from heartache … noone’s lovelife is straightforward. you can be married and miserable, alone and alive, on your own and lonesome and coupled up contentedly. my decree nisi has also provided me with more certainly than my wedding band. bizarre old world we live in …
You will probably end up with an interesting, high-achieving man. He might be in science/medicine, business, entertainment/the arts, an entrepreneur, or politician. Most likely he will be even more successful than you (which limits your market signicantly – lol), and probably a bit older and either never married or divorced. Perhaps foreign but definitely an Alpha.
Anyway, it’s a niche market for you, and the same rules don’t apply as for the rest of us lol.
Autumn, are you some kind of mind reader? seriously, i’m a bit blown away. okay very blown away. i met someone who meets that bill a while ago, right down to him being foreign, and i am interested. what gives? do i owe you a fee?
Either that or some hunky farmer from Tipp with a wicked grin and a flair for spinning acres into gold. Is Sean Og still single? 🙂 I wouldn’t understimate you, lol.
do i owe you a fee?
Lol 🙂
Perhaps “there are no coincidences” lol.
Do keep us posted, of course, including the juicy bits 😉
lol Sean Og! funny.
nothing to share yet but i will keep you posted.
not meeting him again until december. seems like ages away (kind of is, i suppose) but i’ve loads on and he’s always busy and that’s me making excuses … really i wanted to sit with it all for a while because it’s the kind of situation where things will progress very quickly once we both say we want that. i suppose i’m toying with it for the sheer thrill of toying with it. a form of pan-european geographical foreplay 🙂 if things don’t work out, well, no regrets etc.
unlike Ranty, i also wouldn’t rule out any man because of his age. it’s the fire i’m attracted to. many men (and people) have no fire but the ones that do … wow.
Sinead – sounds very interesting but keep your nose in the books.
Sara Eckel
Does anyone have a link to the “27 (wrong) reasons you’re still single” that Eckel seeks to debunk in her book “It’s Not You”? I haven’t read the book, but if someone has a link that lists the 27 reasons I would like to comment on the reasons on my own blog.
Here are a few but I can’t find the full list:
“You’re too picky. Just find a good-enough guy and you’ll be fine.”
Autumn: Many single women are “picky” about the wrong things. Moreover they overestimate what they have to offer in a man’s eyes (and thus their own market value) because they don’t understand the difference between primary masculine needs and secondary ones.
“You’re too desperate. If men think you need them, they’ll run scared.”
Autumn: Men don’t like “desperate and needy” but they do like women who want to “depend” on a man someday.
“You’re too independent. Smart, ambitious women always have a harder time finding mates.”
Autumn: What most women think of as “independent” men think of as “unattractive.” Smart and ambitious aren’t problems – so long as the man figures those things out for himself about a woman. A woman who shows and tells how smart and independent she is will not get asked on a second date (unless he’s primarily after sex).
“You have low self-esteem. You can’t love someone else until you’ve learned to love yourself.”
Autumn: Love is an action, not a feeling.
“You’re too needy. You can’t be happy in a relationship until you’ve learned to be happy on your own.”
Autumn: When a woman approaches a man this comes off as “needy” not “confident and independent.” When she exhibits an air of “quiet confidence and independence,” however, this stokes his attraction triggers.
Thanks
if you click on the “look inside” on amazon, you’ll see the reasons in the table of contents
http://www.amazon.com/Its-Not-You-Reasons-Single/dp/0399162879
Thanks, S.
My comments on Eckel and each of the 27 reasons are on my blog.
Sinead, first of all good luck with starting medicine and I hope you meet that attractive exotic man in December. Once you start going to medical conferences abroad you will get all sorts of offers, apparently they can be a hotbed of romance (and adultery) after the academic talks finish. That hot MD from Philadelphia who is hitting on you is more than likely married with children back home. Plus ça change.
Autumn, farmers from Tipp (hunky or otherwise) and the rest of Ireland aren’t interested in women over 40 unless they are around 65 themselves. A mid 50s farmer who lives near me (I live in the Irish countryside) got married to a woman 20 years his junior 3 years ago. Every year since then she has produced a son – this is an Irish farmer’s wet dream and a reminder of the days when women obeyed the teachings of the church and gave birth to a baby every year. If a man does marry a woman over 40 he will more than likely be no younger than 65 and may well be looking for her to provide for him financially and care for him as he gets older. This might not be an attractive prospect for a woman who is exhausted and stressed out from a demanding full time job and may have to care for elderly parents as well. In this situation another elder who needs care (even if it is an eligible older man) would be too much to take on.
I think the second type of man Sinead mentions is the best. The one who wants “to stay independent but have someone independent they care about floating above and through their life”. Actually these man often have more than one woman floating around so if you’re involved with one of these be sure to use protection.
elle, i never quite know whether you’re stating the obvious to state the obvious or as a revelation of something you’ve just sussed out. of course i’d assume the md from philly is married! i’d be worried if i presumed otherwise. 38 years on the planet here – not much but enough to know how things go. same for the independent man and my december crush, although advising to protect against stds (a no brainer) does kind of take the joy out of christmas. onwards …
Elle,
I’m going to answer you on this thread instead of my little blog in order to avoid confusion (since my answer references my earlier posts to Sinead).
Autumn, farmers from Tipp (hunky or otherwise) and the rest of Ireland aren’t interested in women over 40 unless they are around 65 themselves. A mid 50s farmer who lives near me (I live in the Irish countryside) got married to a woman 20 years his junior 3 years ago. Every year since then she has produced a son – this is an Irish farmer’s wet dream and a reminder of the days when women obeyed the teachings of the church and gave birth to a baby every year.
1. I wasn’t talking about the “average farmer.” If you read my dialogue with Sinead, I told her she will likely pair up with a Very High-Value Apha Male (and Sinead is correct – this type of man is very independent). My point about the Tipp farmer and Sean Og was that not all VHVAM’s are entrepreneurs, scientists, diplomats, etc. and that she might find one in a place she doesn’t expect. A VHVAM (regardless of profession) is not looking for a woman like you, me, or Ranty – but an outlier woman like Sinead, whom he considers to be his equal, will fire up his imagination.
Do you remember that film Baby Boom? You may be too young, but it starred Diane Keaton as a high-powered NYC businesswoman who ends up going up to rural New England to care for her dead sister’s baby. She meets Sam Shepard, a sexy country veterenarian with a twinkle in his eye. This is the type of scenario I am talking about vis-a-vis Tipp farmer (and I know it’s “the movies,” but similar things do happen – see the book “The Dirty Life” or “The Pioneer Woman” blog, or Katie Finch and Steve Rinella’s story).
I may write a post on this because the Independent Outlier Woman, like Sinead or Zoe, is different from the other 90% of us, and their experiences aren’t that relevant for us. The key factor that distinguishes them from you, Ranty, and me is their very natural independence, which is more masculine (and I don’t mean that in a negative way – these women tend to do very well with men) in flavour than 90% of women. Carla Bruni and Madonna are this type of woman. They are catnip to VHVAM (George Clooney it appears is marrying one).
If a man does marry a woman over 40 he will more than likely be no younger than 65 and may well be looking for her to provide for him financially and care for him as he gets older. This might not be an attractive prospect for a woman who is exhausted and stressed out from a demanding full time job and may have to care for elderly parents as well. In this situation another elder who needs care (even if it is an eligible older man) would be too much to take on.
2. A few months ago you posted an anecdote about going to a pub with a group of girlfriends. You learned the next day that one of the men who had approached the table was interested in you. I posted some words of encouragement to you. What happened? Did you ever go out with him? How does that experience fit into your paradigm of “things are terrible for women over 40”?
Ireland has thrown off the shackles of its religious heritage so to speak and, now free of that slavery, has embraced a secular hookup culture, so is it any surprise that a woman over 40 is seen as “no longer sexy” by some men (including men in their 40s)? That’s another subject entirely, but my point is, are you using your age as an excuse to not try to identify and move forward with good men? I am nearly 50, and I met a lot of worthwhile men when I was dating, who were interested in me and expressed an interest in marriage. Not all were in their 60s. My SO is the same age as me (late 40s). He isn’t a glamorous creative type (Ranty would probably find him common, lol), but in no way do I feel I have “settled.” In fact, every day I give thanks for the good fortunate of having such an attractive, caring, interesting, intelligent, and loving man in my life who happily accompanies me to cultural events.
Also your statement about “taking on” an older man smacks to me of viewing a relationship more as a lifestyle accessory than as something that occurrs between two real human beings. There was an NYC lawyer who posted here about wanting a man who was cultured enough to fit in at her friends’ dinner parties. This is the wrong mindset for a woman to have if you want to find love with a man. My SO is now facing the declining health of elderly parents. When we get married one or both may be living with us. I wouldn’t dream of not being with him because it would effect my lifestyle (and yes, I work full-time, and my job is very demanding).
I think the second type of man Sinead mentions is the best. The one who wants “to stay independent but have someone independent they care about floating above and through their life”. Actually these man often have more than one woman floating around so if you’re involved with one of these be sure to use protection.
What kind of woman would be having sex with a man that she suspects is spinning plates? Good lord. If this is the kind of dating advice you follow, I can’t see it ending well for you. Which reminds me, Heather Havrilesky’s “relationship advice” is toxic (Ranty has recently posted favourably on her). I hope to tackle the two articles Ranty linked to by her on my own blog at some point.
It’s unlikely I’ll posting here again (although I will probably lurk) so if you want to reply to anything I have said, please come over to my blog.
lol. i love that film and diane keaton! this is hilarious! looking forward to the outlier post.
this is hilarious! looking forward to the outlier post.
It will happen when the inspiration hits me (which it isn’t at the moment – except for the title, which will be “Catnip Woman” lol).
There are at least two types of Catnip Woman I have identified, High Octane Catnip Woman (e.g. you) and Hippie Catnip Woman (e.g. Zoe). I haven’t figured the rest out yet though.
Catnip Women are a rare breed. None of the characters in Sex and the City were Catnip women. The only one I can think of from TV is from “Picket Fences” (a cult classic with an ensemble cast, you are too young to remember). A young Holly Marie Combs played a Catnip Woman on that show named Kimberly Brock.
Finally, Catnip Women are born, not made. If you aren’t one by nature don’t even try to be, lol.
Heh. Heh. That’s very funny. Where did I get my hippy reputation from, Autumn?
It’s not a reputation Zoe, or based on a set of specific facts, it’s just that the way you write and some of your comments set off my “Hippie Catnip Woman” radar. Fi gives off a touch of it too, but it’s not as strong a vibe as yours.
I could be wrong but I bet I’m right 🙂
Well, I’m rather fascinated by that. Only of real interest to me, of course, but now I’m really curious as to what gave you that impression. I’ve always thought that people’s comments are revealing of character, but now it’s applied to me, I’m baulking! I’m a hippie and I didn’t know it? Heh.
Well, am I right or wrong, Zoe? “Hippie” or not? heh 🙂
Well, I would have to say definitely wrong! But that’s why I was so interested in why you had said it … unless you have some insight that I am hiding from myself, but then I wouldn’t be a reliable witness to that 😉
I got that impression a while back when you were discussing how you still hang out occasionaly with your exes and are on good terms with them. That requires a detatchment and independence that most women don’t possess. You were also talking about what you look for in a relationship and you came off like you take men on your own terms, not theirs, and liking younger men (no, I’m not stalking you, I just have a writer’s eye for concrete details).
You remind me a lot of a Catnip Woman I know who is a bit of a hippie. So maybe I’m associating the Hippie aspect because of that, but it’s an unfair jump.
Hippie or not, however, you are definitely a Catnip Woman. Meow 🙂
Yes, your recollection is very good, Autumn. But I wouldn’t have associated any of those behaviours/characteristics (detachment/independence/pursuing a relationship on one’s own terms) with hippiedom. So maybe we have different perception about what it is to be a hippie? My guess would be if you took a random poll on top characteristics of hippiedom, none of those would figure … Like Sinead I look forward to that post on your blog when you are inspired to write it!
I’m seeing friends who know me well tomorrow, maybe I’ll run the hippie tag by them …
Tried the hippie tag out, Autumn. They laughed. Loudly, I’m afraid. I think it’s because I am not the laid back, peace and love, everything is groovy type. However, as your observations are usually so astute (although I disagree with you ideologically), you’re clearly responding to something. I explained the context, and one friend suggested that it might be because I’m coming across as “open minded”. Another that I am a “libertarian”. And I have once or twice been described as a “free spirit” (a description I rather liked at the time and found rather flattering, but in all honesty did not feel I could own, because I’ve been too clasically, and less attractively, “driven” for that). There’s that list of things that people most regret when they’re on their death beds. The one that features prominently is doing what others wanted rather than what you wanted for yourself. That is not a regret I can see myself having. I’ve always done my own thing . (I’m not being smug – this inevitably leads to a different set of regrets!). I’m not sure how much that helps for your development of your theories on “outliers” (presumably Madonna is the high octane and Carla Bruni the hippie), but I still await that with interest…
Tried the hippie tag out, Autumn. They laughed. Loudly, I’m afraid. I think it’s because I am not the laid back, peace and love, everything is groovy type. ….I explained the context, and one friend suggested that it might be because I’m coming across as “open minded”. Another that I am a “libertarian”. And I have once or twice been described as a “free spirit” (a description I rather liked at the time and found rather flattering, but in all honesty did not feel I could own, because I’ve been too clasically, and less attractively, “driven” for that). …. I’ve always done my own thing . (I’m not being smug – this inevitably leads to a different set of regrets!). I’m not sure how much that helps for your development of your theories on “outliers” (presumably Madonna is the high octane and Carla Bruni the hippie), but I still await that with interest…
Zoe,
Thanks for reporting back with the data, lol. I’ve been mulling this one over since we last conversed. You made a point earlier about how “hippie” is defined and I was thinking about that. The woman I was comparing you to, the Hippie Catnip Woman (Let’s call her Michelle), is not really an overt “peace and love” type either, at least not in a hippy-dippy/flower-child way. I tagged her with “Hippie” because:
1. Partner has long hair and plays heavy metal band as hobby
2. Politically she is very left-wing
3. She and partner smoke weed albeit infrequently (both have demanding day jobs)
4. She dresses very hippie-ish — flowing ethnic prints, faded jeans, etc.
5. She hangs around with people who smoke weed (not hardcore stoners though).
5. She is extremely laid-back (very inscrutable, never becomes emotional).
6. She and heavy metal man like to go camping.
7. The take pride in refusing to shop at places like John Lewis (“posh and suburban” – apparently this is a political statement for them, although they like money, and are not generous with it to those less fortunate. Hmmmm…)
Then I thought about a friend’s son. His mother describes him as a “hippie.”
1. He is a medical doctor
2. He doesn’t smoke weed
3. His hair is short
4. He is extremely idealistic and non-materialistic,
5. He is generous with his money.
6. He has very strong sense of injustice.
7. He is politically left wing.
8. He spends much of his precious holiday time hitchhiking in exotic locales.
None of those attributes apply to Michelle!
So I have to go back and give some thought to the definition of “hippie.”
Your description of “Free Spirit” might be more appropriate than Hippie, because the “Hippie Catnip Woman” type is definitely a free spirit. So let’s call her “Free Spirit Catnip Woman” going forward (yes – Bruni, is a prototype, and Madonna a prototype for High Octane Catnip Woman).
You mentioned younger men. I suspect that if you met a man 10 years younger and a worked in, say, a bookstore or as a barista, and he was witty with a twinkle in his eye and you and he hit it off (similar sense of humour, etc) you would date him and even fall in love with him. You wouldn’t care one whit that he had less money than you, or a “McJob.” High-Octane Catnip Woman, by contrast, nearly always finds herself attracted to a VHVAM. You are both true to yourself, but your attraction triggers are different.
If you go through the two lists above and report back that would be great. I am looking at “Hippie Quizzes” and will report back too. 🙂
Autumn,
Sorry for delay in getting back to you. I’m going to be brief, otherwise I fear we will take up too much off-subject space on this blog. Maybe we can continue on yours?
1) I think our concept of hippie is primarily about dress and attitude and being anti-establishment in a non-engaged or drop-out way. Michelle would probably have enough characteristics to be thought of as a hippie or at least a hippie- type (ethnic prints, laid back, weed). Medical doctor does not. He is only a hippie in that his mother invites us to look at him, despite appearances, as a
“hippie at heart” (backpacking, non-materialistic, idealistic). This is the same way as one might call a big rough tough guy as a “pussy cat” i.e. not useful as a prototype for, or to define, “pussy cat”.
2) The problem with Bruni in any explanatory scheme is that she is a super-model and an heiress. Proposing any aspect of her personality to explain her impact on men may be an uphill effort.
3) My guess is that the principal difference between Sinead and me is life stage rather than a true difference of “types”. That’s based on what I know about myself and what I guess about her – it’s not an argument against your general schema per se.
The problem with Bruni in any explanatory scheme is that she is a super-model and an heiress. Proposing any aspect of her personality to explain her impact on men may be an uphill effort.
Hi Zoe,
The primary distinguishing feature of a Catnip Woman is that she self-possessed and takes men on her own terms i.e. she has a natural confidence. Men perceive this as “low maintenance” (in a good way). All Catnip Woman exhibit this trait.
This has nothing to do with money or profession. Princess , for example, was a beautiful heiress also but she was not a Catnip Woman.
It’s important for non-Catnip Woman to understand this distinction. Non-Catnip Woman often try to project “confidence” but because it is not the natural confidence of the Catnip Woman, generally speaking it does not translate into “low maintenance,” ergo it turns men off ( nearly all men like no drama/low maintenance).
I’m still hammering out my theories on this, and it’s by no means an exact science! Catnip Women don’t need help with men – they are naturally successful with them. I think however that understanding how Catnip Women operate and how they are perceived can be helpful for the rest of us!
I’ll start a chat thread on my blog for anyone who wishes to explore these ideas.
Sorry that was “Princess Diana” – not sure what happened.
Autumn, is your blog no longer accessible via google search? I can no longer find it under a “Mining the Manosphere”.. How will people come to you? Will they always have to come to the bitterbabe portal?!
LOL Zoe – I hid it from google last week because I was getting too much spam. I’ve reset it to “indexed” status, so it should turn up in the next day or so if not sooner.
In the meantime the URL to the blog is visible is you hover on my name.
If anyone here wants to carry over any of the discussions that are ongoing here on the “Chat Thread” at my blog that’s fine with me – idealogical agreement with my blog’s theme is not required!
Autumn, in the light of your comments, I’ve been mulling the variation in the way we behave and how it affects our relationships. We do, it is true, set our patterns early. I got a letter this week from a man I hadn’t seen or heard of in 37 years. We had dated briefly when we were teenagers. And he had written and recorded a song in which he wonders where I am now “Whatever happened to that girl …”. And now he had tracked me down. We’ve been having a delightful email correspondence full of warmth and nostalgia. And then he asked me if I remembered why we split up. He couldn’t remember and nor could I, so I searched my old teenage diaries. And this is what I found:
Friday 21, January, 1977: “Mmm…guess who hasn’t rung me up – all this week. I don’t know what to think really. I wouldn’t have thought he would have wanted to split up . Anyway, I don’t think I’ll give him a ring or anything.”
Sunday 23, January, 1977: “He rang just after we’d finished eating dinner. Extremely courteous of him! I hung up on him. Much easier way of finishing things.”
And that was it! He doesn’t get another mention. Insufficiently keen? Next! I relayed it to him, and we laughed. Young love, eh?
I mean, it’s not how I ‘d go about things now, but if you don’t want the mind-fuck of half-assed men in your life…
Great anecdote Zoe, thanks for sharing, classic Catnip Woman from start to finish (including the 37 years later and he has never forgotten you, and the fact that YOU couldn’t remember why you broke up).
It just reinforces what I said earlier that the Catnip Woman is born not made. The ones I have known (the number is small) were all like you as teenagers, and are probably still setting on fire the imaginations of middle-aged men who were on the receiving end of their drama-free “nexting” over 30 years ago, lol.
OK. OK. OK. I’ve got it, Autumn. I think I know what it is you had picked up on. Hippie catnip. I believe that relationships should only last as long as they’re good. You must always be ready to set each other free. Relationships that end are not “failed” long term relationships. Although I never think of it in in hippie terms, it’s a bit “free love” isn’t it? And you’re right. Men do respond to this. Perversely, although I have never sought a commitment, men have wanted to make it. I am sure that part of the reason is because they are completely free – never feel pressure – to do so. It does seem ironic that while I was ambivalent about babies, my serious boyfriends were broody. It was invariably the undoing of the relationship. Unfair to those who want babies with men who won’t commit? Yes. But pure coincidence? No, I suspect not.
That’s depressing.
what’s depressing?
Sorry, this was meant to be a reply to Elle’s comment (August 15th, 11:58 pm). I don’t know how it ended up here.
no sorry required. i thought that was what you were referring to and was trying to draw your comment out a bit. that’s all.
Sinead, 🙂
Autumn, can you please post a link to your blog. Thanks.
Hi Elle,
It’s autumnrtl.wordpress.com.
I’ll address your comments to me not here but on my blog, later today or tomorrow.
Thanks for the link.
Elle,
The link to my blog can be found if you hover on my username. I’ll address your other comments on my blog later today or tomorrow.
“although advising to protect against stds (a no brainer) does kind of take the joy out of christmas” Oh I don’t know, that was the line that made me laugh.
ah, i found it funny too but more because it sounds old-fashioned.
gotta wonder too though. we’re here talking about how to meet men, relationships, the single life and i comment that i’ve met someone fab and the immediate response is wear a johnny. ffs. yay for the sisterhood! again, i repeat … there are reasons some of us are single. joy out of christmas.
A medical student of all people should know to wear a johnny. Would you laugh at a consultant virologist who told you the same thing like he told me backing up his advice with the latest STD figures. Apparently the largest rise in STDs is among the 40 plus group. Wait till you see graphic depictions of STDs in bacteriology lectures!
I don’t think you read my comment right Elle. I said protection was a no brainer! That means I’m 100% pro protection. I took issue with your comment because it wasn’t advice given to inform but pseudo advice given to burst my bubble. There is a big, big difference between the two.
I forgot to say that in Ireland most people are still relatively modest, at least deep down. One things that puts Irish men off big time, especially rural men, is a woman who comes across as thinking she’s better than everyone else.
Yes, a right nation of begrudgers they are ;-).
Yes, we are begrudgers. Begrudgery is a coping mechanism of the Irish along with alcohol abuse. As a nation we’ve been ground down and kicked when we’re down both by colonisers and by our own government. Sadly I don’t think this will change in the short term so begrudgery and substance abuse will continue.
People who emigrate and aren’t trapped here tend to see life in a totally different light. Many say that they only realised how tough Ireland is when they went away and experienced another kinder, more open culture. One of my colleagues is a returned emigrant. She came back in 2009 and ended up having to stay because she got pregnant shortly after she came back. She says that life in Ireland is extremely tough and people are really ground down here. The initial hope and enthusiasm she had when she returned is gone thanks to a house in negative equity, a dead-end job with no prospects of advancement and endless bills. Once her daughter is grown up she will leave.
Elle,
On this same thread you also describe the rural Irish as modest, no bs, and down to earth. That seems to be a bit of contradiction to what you are saying now about them.
I am aware of Irish history, but I am also aware that today, Ireland has one of the highest standards of living in the world. People come from all over the world to live there, leaving behind family, friends, and their own culture, because of the economic opportunities in Ireland furnished by the low corporate tax rate. It seems to me that “a legacy of colonial oppression” is just an excuse for a lot of people who have far more than most materially speaking, but who still want more (a villa in Spain, a house in So. Co. Dublin, an extension, a new car, etc.), to give out, instead of being grateful for what they have and seeking to share and ease the burden for others less fortunate.
Irish people will at some point need to take a long look in the mirror and ask why the social fabric is so frayed in Ireland now as to be non-existant. And no, they can’t blame it on the Brits anymore.
Anyway, it’s a complex subject and we won’t solve it here.
A fraction of Irish people have a very high standard of living, particularly the higher professional class. Sadly most of us struggle and there are many who can’t make ends meet at the end of the month.
If the standard of living in Ireland is so good why are our graduates leaving the minute they get their qualifications?
The standard of living in Ireland may be high compared to that in West Africa, India, South America or the Philippines. Rents are expensive in Dublin but people can buy more space here for their rent than in Beijing.
Ask a couple with two children with both parents earning the average industrial wage if the Irish have a high standard of living.
I know an Irish college lecturer who returned to Australia after 3 years in Ireland. His wife chose not to work because childcare costs for their 3 children would have cancelled out her salary. He left because he got a better paying job in Australia. He said there were no prospects for advancement in Ireland and he and his wife’s savings were diminishing. He said that his family would have a better standard of living in Australia.
If Ireland is so bad why don’t I leave? I have family responsibiities here. Otherwise I would have got the hell out decades ago.
Irish SMEs (small to medium size enterprises) are struggling. Multinationals can take advantage of corporation tax and that is the only reason they are here.
One family is being made homeless in Dublin almost every day because of spiralling rents. Is this a country with a high standard of living or just a high cost of living?
Let me assure you all, Catnip women are usually ignored in rural Ireland where most people are down to earth and no bullsh!t. I was born and grew up in rural Ireland and I would know it better than most. I worked and studied in the city but regularly visited rural Ireland. “Very High Value Alpha Males” do not normally live in rural Ireland. If they do they do not belong to rural Ireland per se and they are generally married or attached. They would be viewed by the general population in the same way that the owner of the Big House was before independence. One example is former Riverdance dancer/producer Michael Flatley. His wife Niamh is several years his junior. I know of a VHVAM in his mid 40s who trains racehorses – in Tipperary! He is looking for an independent successful woman but she must be young enough to have children – that is non-negotiable.
The only rural communities where Catnip women have some success are communities composed of locals and international blow-ins. Both communities are largely separate even after the international blow-ins have been around for decades. One tragic example of a Catnip woman in such a community is the filmmaker Sophie Toscan du Plantier. Another international blow-in was framed for her murder but nobody knows the true story behind what happened. I often wonder if her murderer was a local woman whose was jealous or whose husband was cheating. I hope for the sake of Sophie’s family that the truth eventually surfaces.
The double standard is still surprisingly common in rural Ireland, particularly in the 40 plus generation. The VHVAM may be happy to have a casual affair with a Catnip woman but he is unlikely to marry her because in 99% of cases he will want to pass on his Alpha genes and have children.
Mid 40s women in Ireland are in a double bind. We were raised to keep our virginity for marriage or at the very least for steady boyfriends or fiances. After years of abstinence it is galling to be passed over for younger women who were not indoctrinated with sexual guilt like we were. When my single peers and I are in our cups we often list our regrets and the offers of seduction we passed up for the sake of doing the right thing or keeping our “self respect”. One woman said that if she had her 20s back and she knew what she knows now she would sleep with all and sundry.
Elle,
I was addressing Sinead’s set of facts. The type of man she I see her with will either by divorced with children from an early first marriage (most likely scenario) and not looking to have more, or never married and not wanting children.
Not all VHVAM are the same. There are subtypes. Michael Flatley is a VHVAM but not the tsubype for Sinead – he married a traditional woman (Niamh O’Brien), not a Catnip Woman. Sinead’s type of man will be a LOT more cerebral (and less flashy) than Lord Flatley.
So what did happen to that man who expressed an interest in you in the pub?
The men who express an interest in me strangely think I am younger than I actually am and the man in the pub was the same. Most think I am late 30s. I have always appeared young for my age and it isn’t the blessing one would think it is.When I was in my 30s and men thought I was in my 20s they were intrigued. Now when men find out my real age now they lose interest. I do not encourage men in their early 40s and am circumspect about being approached by men under 55 for this reason. I am realistic about my prospects so I am looking for a man who is in his mid 50s or older. Such men are rare. Perhaps I am cutting my nose off to spite my face but I have been rejected many times once men find out my true age. I will not coquettishly lie about my age like some women – I am honest from the start because I want a man who is honest in every way.
I have been rejected many times once men find out my true age.
You have to “next” these, Elle. A man who screens for age like this is not desirable.
I presume you are in your early 40s. Aiming for men in their 50s is a good strategy, particularly the divorced and widowed with grown children. If you are LTR-minded I would also encourage you to cast your net wider geographically, perhaps extending to the North and/or the UK/Scotland. These limits are not insurmountable (particularly with Ryan Air) if you meet the right individual.
Autumn, all men screen for age.
Autumn, all men screen for age.
By “screen for age” I mean a man in his 40s who rejects a woman in her 40s, which is what you have described. I wouldn’t give a man like that 10 seconds of my time.
A 45 year old man who isn’t interested in a 52 y.o. woman? That wouldn’t bother me.
Feck, I have got to catch with this discussion, especially as I’ve a new role as High Octane Catnip Woman 🙂 Vroom, vroom.
Michael Flatley, a traditionalist under an unattractive and flash veneer, would NOT be my type. I would take Generic John over him. And I wouldn’t even take Generic John.
I’m a bit blown away by this VHVAM concept really. It’s made a lot of things fall into place for me. Going to have to mull it over a bit more.
I WOULD take generic John. The problem I have is meeting him. Like many men and women in Ireland. I have a long commute, a busy job and very little spare time.
Serious question Elle – do you like hillwalking? I know two non-catnip 40s women who have met really nice guys through a hillwalking club they go to once a month.
To tell the truth, I am re-evaluating my life at the moment because the pressures of the last few years have built up and left me with chronic fatigue and burnout. I have the choice of going back to my high pressured but badly paid draining job or finding an alternative. I will probably have to go back to my job as I have no safety net. Right now I am too exhausted to consider alternatives. I am a single woman who isn’t earning a great salary after years of work including doing an honours degree by night. My savings were eroded hugely when I bought a house in the countryside three years ago – I couldn’t afford to buy a house in the city where I work and where I had a relatively good life with lots of friends.
I like hillwalking but for the sake of hillwalking, not to meet men. I am too fatigued to go hillwalking at the moment. In the space of three months I went from doing twice weekly bootcamp classes and 30km cycles at the weekend to being barely able to manage a leisurely 5k walk.
Just wanted to make this point.
Autumn you see me with a man who’s either divorced with children from an early first marriage (most likely scenario) and not looking to have more,or never married and not wanting children. I would be perfectly happy with EITHER of these.
Why am I pointing this out?
Because I wish I had a euro for everytime a single women past a certain age, say late 30s, says she’s not interested in guys with a “history”, only a single guy who’s never been married and never had children! Divorced men, especially those with children are off the menu. The plan is to only meet a single guy and have a family with him. It could work but the chances are low because these single women are older and men, quite riightly if they’ve a choice between late 30s or early 30s, will go for early 30s.
Personally, I find it more real that people have a history. Most people have some “baggage” (not the best phrase to choose when it comes to children … not how I see them either) by the time they reach late 30s. It’s a sign of having lived. Having been through a divorce myself, let me tell you it’s a learning experience that quickly knocks any rough corners off you … painful at the time but very useful for a smoother passage through the rest of life.
Elle – these women didn’t join the hillwalking club to meet men. Trust me, it was the last thing on their minds. They were exhausted from the same old, same old working week pattern and decided to give a bit of time each month to something they enjoyed. Just for themselves. No other expectations. They also joined different clubs, so turned up as individuals. The groups are really friendly – people just want to walk, sit on the top of a mountain while sharing lunch, get some fresh air, have the odd pint – and well, as a bonus they did meet decent fellas who also didn’t join the group to meet women. So it goes …
Hillwalking is also a zero bullshit environment and attracts down to earth, real types.
Autumn you see me with a man who’s either divorced with children from an early first marriage (most likely scenario) and not looking to have more,or never married and not wanting children. I would be perfectly happy with EITHER of these.
Why am I pointing this out?
Because I wish I had a euro for everytime a single women past a certain age, say late 30s, says she’s not interested in guys with a “history”, only a single guy who’s never been married and never had children! Divorced men, especially those with children are off the menu. The plan is to only meet a single guy and have a family with him. It could work but the chances are low because these single women are older and men, quite riightly if they’ve a choice between late 30s or early 30s, will go for early 30s.
Single women in their late 30s say this? Sheesh. This is a great example of what I said earlier to Elle about wanting a relationship as a lifestyle accessory, not as a connection between two real human beings.
My SO is divorced with young-ish children and he tells me that a lot of single women are looking for sperm donors, and that many of those that “tolerated” his status as dad (and its attendant obligations) were not particularly supportive or accommodating in that respect. I have also heard from more than one single dad that girlfriends can be very jealous of the children (which is both childish and ridiculous. Apparently the late Nuala O’Faolain was like this toward her NYC lawyer boyfriend).
TL;DR – A woman who is supportive and accommodating toward a divorced man with children will stand out in terms of desiribility to such a man in comparison to her peers.
I know.
I said to one woman who had turned down interest from a divorced man, who was divorced a few years, so wasn’t even in aftershock territory, “Do you want love in your life or not? Because if you want love in your life it might be arriving in a blue rather than a green bag. It’s still love.”
I just don’t get it.
After years of abstinence it is galling to be passed over for younger women who were not indoctrinated with sexual guilt like we were. When my single peers and I are in our cups we often list our regrets and the offers of seduction we passed up for the sake of doing the right thing or keeping our “self respect”. One woman said that if she had her 20s back and she knew what she knows now she would sleep with all and sundry.
One more thing Elle – if you are bemoaning the absence of ONS, FB, or FWB (yes, this is how it reads to me) and think this is related to your age you are completely wrong. Create an account on OKCupid or POF and sit back as the offers flood your inbox, even if you don’t check the “casual encounter” box. They will come from men of all ages including men in their 20s and 30s. So if this is truly what you want and feel you missed out on, stop giving out, get up off your arse, and go for it.
Thank you for the advice but that is not what I want. Unfortunately that is pretty much the only option for women over 40, few men want long term relationships with us. I think several women in their late 30s up overvalue their worth in the SMP and that keeps them believing they will find someone when it is unlikely. Sometimes they project their denial onto other women by denigrating us for being realistic. That’s OK. If you want to delude yourself you can buy yourself another years of hope but the fall will be harder when the penny eventually drops.
I am at a similar place to Ranty now. I am realistic about my prospects and coming to terms with the hard cold reality is difficult at times.
I’m a great believer in just getting out there and living an interesting life for myself. If I meet someone on the road, that’s a bonus. And I do. I’ve met three really great people since the start of the year, one 42, one 45, the third 50, who were interested in me and I was in them. All lovely, normal, smart, funny looking for a loyal but independent relationship. I said no to one, had a three month relationship with another and my December man is the third one. For me, it’s always going to come back to the same question in these discussions. What are you doing that puts you mixing with people, even if it’s only by proxy? A lot of the time I find single women are doing diddly squat. They go shopping, watch a lot of TV, travel only with friends, blah-di–blah. Even if they weren’t looking to meet someone, would this not be very boring in itself?
Unfortunately that is pretty much the only option for women over 40, few men want long term relationships with us.
Elle,
I think you are under-optimistic (the other side of the coin of the deluded over-optimistic that you describe). Come over to my blog some time and have a read-through.
I’m older than you and I had very little problem in the SMP/MMP once I studied male attraction triggers and cut my cloth accordingly. Yes, you have to screen out a lot of rubbish, but that’s easy once you know what to look for.
I’m a great believer in just getting out there and living an interesting life for myself. If I meet someone on the road, that’s a bonus.
Yes, women who have passions and interests of their own are very, very attractive to most men.
A fraction of Irish people have a very high standard of living, particularly the higher professional class. Sadly most of us struggle and there are many who can’t make ends meet at the end of the month.
If the standard of living in Ireland is so good why are our graduates leaving the minute they get their qualifications?
The standard of living in Ireland may be high compared to that in West Africa, India, South America or the Philippines. Rents are expensive in Dublin but people can buy more space here for their rent than in Beijing.
Elle,
I can tell from your post that you have never experiened life outside of Ireland. As a result your perceptions are skewed.
The post-celtic tiger Irish have VERY high expectations. People who paid £70k for their house in the early 1990s and saw it more than quadruple in value in ten years’ time thought the good times would never end. Now they are having difficulty making payments on the holiday villa and/or the 3-bed income property in Lucan (which they rent out to the highest bidder). Well, boo hoo. As for those who bought after the boom – join the club of everyone else in the entire world apart from the rich who also share the universal burden of home ownership and the money pit it is, terrible commute, unrewarding job, paycheque that is stagnant and won’t stretch, neighbours that are doing a lot better and got a lot luckier, etc.
The standard of living in Ireland is incredibly high compared to the standard of living in the U.S., where for most people there is next to no job security, nothing like VHI, no FAS, no Citizens Advice bureau, no lifetime social welfare safety net, no “right to housing,” no drugs payment scheme, no statutory redundancy, no RAS scheme, no Jobbridge scheme, no Community Employment scheme, no free higher education, etc. Sinead has posted previously about how difficult it is to make ends meet in Amsterdam, far more difficult than in Ireland. Italy is the same as Amsterdam.
I didn’t say “quality of life” in Ireland was high (I don’t think it is particularly, in many respects, with the new god of materialism is enthroned), but the “standard of living” is among the highest in the world. It is, relatively speaking, a paradise for those who come from places like Eastern Europe where real economic hardship still endures. Ask a Croatian, a Slovankian, Savadoran, Argentenian, Nigerian or Pole living AND WORKING (most likely for close to minimum wage) in Ireland what he or she thinks about the standard of living there in comparison to their home country. They will tell you Ireland offers iincredible economic opportunity IN COMPARISON to where they come from. Americans (the affluent ones excepted) will increasingly tell you the same.
Graduates are leaving Ireland because of two things (a) lack of opportunity in their particular field and (b) poor quality of life. They missed the housing boom, so unless mommy and daddy sell the 800K house in Booterstown and furnish them with a deposit they will be stuck in a location that, because of Irish social snobbery, will put them on a lower place on the social ladder they they feel they deserve given the high expectations they were raised with. For those of a less materialistic bent, they perhaps want refuge in a place that still has a social fabric, as Ireland itself did for hundreds of years up until quite very recently.
I have a love/hate relationship with Ireland. You and I we may simply have to agree to disagree about the place.
You’re right. I have never lived outside of Ireland and I am a peasant with skewed perception but that is NOT by choice. I’m not going to go into that now but I have always been bound here by duty and responsibility.
The high standard of living you speak of has to be paid by somebody, namely the Irish taxpayer. That is why the quality of life for people on modest wages is so low in Ireland.
If one family is being made homeless a day due to spiralling rents is it any wonder Irish people want to own their own homes? Eviction is part of our history and this has affected the collective psyche of the Irish. The 19th century potato famine, starvation, rackrents and eviction are sometimes called the Irish holocaust. Perhaps we will look back in a hundred years time and the Celtic Tiger fallout will be regarded as the second wave Irish holocaust.
If one family is being made homeless a day due to spiralling rents is it any wonder Irish people want to own their own homes?
The cause of the spiralling rents is Irish people who own “investment properties.” Irish “investors” exploiting their fellow countrymen, in other words. Is this the type of world James Connolly went to his death for, leaving his beloved Lily a widow and their children fatherless? I think not.
You can buy a house in Dublin today for 100k but it’s not a place where most Irish people want to live. So this isn’t about “owning a house” per se to protect your family from Gombeen Man. On the countrary, It’s about a “lifestyle.”
Frankly Elle, your statements about a “second holocaust” are offensive to anyone living today who has known real material deprivation, and to the memories of those who perished because of it (including the estimated million Irish who died in the Famine) and those who survived. If you want some perspective, read Kevin Kearns’s books on the social history of the Dublin tenements.
Are you saying that Irish people today aren’t experiencing deprivation? Ask anyone who works for the Irish Simon community and they will tell you what is going on. The great famine of the 19th century was Ireland’s holocaust – I do not see how that comment is offensive. My ancestors were among those evicted. Today’s deprivation is not equal to the Great Famine but the second holocaust (perhaps I chose the wrong expression) refers to the dashing of hope in this little island after centuries of oppression. We had a few years of success from about 1995 to 2006 – little more than a decade. People went crazy during those years and do you blame them? It was the only time that Irish people felt successful and equal to the rest of the world. Before that we were considered to be “the sick man of Europe”.
There is worse to come. Here is a link to an article by Gene Kerrigan in today’s Sunday Independent. You probably know that John Bruton is a former Irish politician. The deprivation will also affect Europe. The 1% are fleecing us all. Sometimes I wonder if all the fuss about being single and childless at a certain age is a ploy to distract us from what’s really happening. Here’s the article, I hope Ranty doesn’t mind me posting a weblink:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-when-john-bruton-and-his-peers-speak-we-really-ought-to-pay-attention-to-their-ideas-30513201.html
Are you saying that Irish people today aren’t experiencing deprivation? Ask anyone who works for the Irish Simon community and they will tell you what is going on.
No country in the world is Utopia, Elle. Ireland, relative to other countries, has a very small poverty problem – again, RELATIVE TO MOST COUNTRIES.
I’m well aware of the homeless statistics in Ireland. Much of it is driven by spiralling rents. How do rents spiral? Do they just do this on their own in response to the law of supply and demand, “the market”? No. Spiralling rents are caused by the choices of Irish landlords, who put profit at all costs before people. Again, Irish people doing this to Irish people (as Connolly foresaw).
But to those who are effected it is devastating, yes.
How many rooms in are in your house, Elle? Are they all rented out, or are there any empty ones? Have you personally rung Threshold or Simon and offered to share some of what you have with your fellow Irish citizens who have fallen on hard times and are homeless (and presumably on a the housing list)? What about your friends in the city? Do they have empty rooms in their house they could share with some of Dublin’s most vulnerable?
What have you done to influence the situation and to reach out and help others, other than lecturing about deprivation from a distance?
Do you have any friends or family who own “investment properties?” Have you spoken to any of them about the fact that their desire for the highest profit is causing harm to the deprived in Ireland and destroying the social fabric, perhaps suggested that they lower the rent, give security of tenure, and take a lower profit in order to solve the deprivation for one family?
At the end of the day, talking about deprivation and expressing your outrage that it exists per se does not solve it.
As for politicians – Ireland is not a brutal dictatorship. People kept voting in the same government.
And if you are going to jump in and say “What have YOU done, Autumn, to lessen deprivation?” (implying that I am a sanctimonious hypocrite), well, in addition to many years of being very politically active and active in my community to fight for government accountability and better social policy (never paid but always as a volunteer, and always whilst working full time and dealing with at times major health issue), I’ve done a lot, not only involving housing and feeding near strangers for free for long stretches of time on my sofa, but also putting my hand in my pocket in a major way relative to my income and net worth on numerous occasions when I ran across someone who needed help – usually where friends and family with means had turned their backs – and not loans but with gifts.
Some of the people suffering are couples who bought houses in the commuter belt at the height of the boom. They had been “advised” to buy a house while they could still afford it by bank managers, estate agents and the dog in the street. Both partners would have been working at the time and the banks were handing out 100% mortgages like smarties. Parents were encouraged to remortgage their own houses so their children could get a foot on the property ladder before it was too late.
Fast forward to the present and one or both of the couple who bought the overpriced house in the commuter belt are unemployed. If one of them has a job they have suffered pay cuts. They may or may not have children.
Ireland was just trying to catch up with other countries around the world. We really thought our time had come though some doubted it. Now people from countries which had much longer periods of success than Ireland are kicking us in the teeth and saying our misfortune was our own fault. Maybe it is. Whatever the case this period of history will be remembered by the Irish. It will be burned into the minds of future generations – the future generations who will still be paying the debts incurred by the bankers and speculators.
Elle,
People bought more than they could afford. No one forced them to sign.
It’s happening all over the world, not just Ireland, and the consequences are far more brutal in places like the U.S. where there is very little social safety net and repossessions are dealt with much more directly.
There are no “jobs for life” anywhere unless you are in the civil service, and when you sign that paper in the solicitor’s office, there is not only the millstone of a mortgage hanging around your neck, but also the threat of negative equity, rising interest rates, antisocial neighbours, and job loss. These are the burdens and risks of home ownership for ordinary people all over the world. Ireland is not in any way special, nor the plight of the Irish any more tragic.
If the Irish bought overpriced houses thinking the world was one big Disneyland than they were very naiive. Their degree of individual responsibility for their own economic choices, however, is an issue on which reasonable minds will disagree.
Serious question Elle – do you like hillwalking? I know two non-catnip 40s women who have met really nice guys through a hillwalking club they go to once a month.
Ditto on hillwalking. I know one couple who met through a co-ed softball team (there is a league in Ireland), and another through a mixed-doubles badminton league. Other suggestions for activity-based socialising are dancing lessons for beginners (whether ballroom, set dancing, ceili dancing, flamenco, etc.), tennis, playing bridge, a language exchange (many of those on meetup).
If I were single I would join a couple of these groups that held the highest interest for me. It’s not for “meeting men” primarily, it’s to have something you enjoy that might turn into a social outlet. This is why it’s important to pick activities you are interested in.
One way I met some single men was by going once a month to a club that had live music that I liked. I did this for a couple of years. Eventually the guys in the band and other regular patrons would recognise me and start to chat. I was interested in one of the guitar players, and sensed it was mutual and would have perhaps lead to a date, but just as I was sensing a mutual attraction I met my SO.
That’s a good point, Autumn, that it often takes time to meet people even if you go out to activities you enjoy. (You said it took a couple of years of going once a month to the club to meet people.)
I don’t think people should go to activities groups in the hopes of meeting men or even meeting friends, because if you do it primarily for that reason, you will be disappointed. It’s best to go to something you enjoy simply because you enjoy it, with the possible social connections being the icing on the cake. Otherwise you’ll end up disappointed if you don’t ‘meet’ anyone and perhaps feel you’re wasting your time.
That’s a good point, Autumn, that it often takes time to meet people even if you go out to activities you enjoy. (You said it took a couple of years of going once a month to the club to meet people.)
I like the song “Harvest Moon” by the inimitable Neil Young, One of the best lines:
“When we were strangers I watched you from afar….”
Women needs to realise that most of the nice men tend to hang back unless the woman gives pretty unambiguous signals to approach. There is an article on my blog called “The Fear of Rejection” that addresses this.
So you can be interacting socially with a man for a long, long time and think he isn’t interested because he doesn’t make a move, and write him off way too soon.
Patience is an incredible virtue.
If you do start going out alone to, say, a music club because you love the music that is being played, DRESS UP IN A WAY THAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD, even if it means you are the best dressed female in the room.
I don’t think people should go to activities groups in the hopes of meeting men or even meeting friends, because if you do it primarily for that reason, you will be disappointed. It’s best to go to something you enjoy simply because you enjoy it, with the possible social connections being the icing on the cake. Otherwise you’ll end up disappointed if you don’t ‘meet’ anyone and perhaps feel you’re wasting your time.
This is great advice and so well-expressed. You said it much better than me. It should be followed by single women seeking commitment to a T.
coming back to Ranty, I take on board what others have said about her not seeming to engage but I think it’s very hard to gauge someone’s character from their online activity. yes, you can tell whether or not they have a brain but I think that’s probably as far as it goes. having dated an inordinate number of men I met online, who were as clever and witty as you like onscreen but could barely string a sentence together and, in a couple of cases, had what could only be described as mental health issues, I speak from experience.
I tend to go for people who take a bit of probing to get to know. brash, ‘over confident’ types are a bit of a turn off for me.
This is very true, too. People can come across as much different offline than they do online. Or rather, you get a much fuller picture of the person offline. I think the more personal the blog, the more true this is.
Ranty, please don’t take the harsh comments you’ve received to heart. You are such a gifted and interesting writer and most of us could care less whether you try to reach out to those who comment on your blog. We just want to read your insights about life and your life in particular. Please don’t stop blogging. You’re one of the few writers worth reading!
Thank you. I’ll leave the blog up for others to discover (and make their own judgments about), but this feels like a good stopping point. I found those final two essays I posted by Heather Havrilesky to be, underneath all the bluster, quite profound. They seem like a good summary note to go out on.
Things with me are fine… and just that, fine. My challenge for the next ten years will be to try and find things that will make me feel like I’m not just killing time until retirement. There is a lot to deal with at this life stage. I feel a decline in energy (and eyesight), while feeling greater demands on my energy from my job. At the same time, I need more energy than ever to tackle what feels like the ever-dwindling opportunities for a social and dating life (especially now that I’ve added in a long commute from my usual places of interest). Add on to that the loss of illusions. It’s not hard to imagine the next ten years being filled entirely by work and the occasional fleeting diversion; if so, it’s hard not to want to snap my fingers and have them be over already so I can get to retirement. The trick will be finding something to make me not feel that way…
Ranty, sorry to hear your energy is declining. I think women like us are susceptible to this at midlife especially if we feel disillusioned with our lot. The cause can also be physiological so please get yourself checked out by a good doctor or endocrinologist. Also sympathetic naturopath might help you pick yourself up again.
I agree that a relentless round of commuting with little else but eating and sleeping in between can be very tiring especially when you are at a certain age and feel there is little hope. I have been floored by such a routine myself and am currently off work with fatigue and burnout. Tests show my adrenals are very low. I had an underactive thyroid which was well managed for a number of years but other tests have shown why I am fatigued. I believe my physical state is not helping my psychological state and I am addressing that.
Women will always be women and mean girls will always be mean girls regardless of whether we’re 14 or 40 or even 80. I think there is an inbuilt competitiveness in women which shows it’s ugly side when there is a dearth of available men. Perhap we don’t consciously acknowledge this but women tend to be meaner to each other when there are fewer men around. Likewise when there are significantly more men around than women men are more likely to turn on each other. The difference is that men are more likely to turn on each other physically while women undermine each other in different ways.
Take time to get your health checked out and be kind to yourself. I am leaving you with this uplifting article from the Irish Times about a single 60 year old teacher in Ireland.
Una Hughes, 60: ‘Most of my friends are single or divorced. We’re very happy’
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/una-hughes-60-most-of-my-friends-are-single-or-divorced-we-re-very-happy-1.1903836
Perhaps things will get better for those of us are finding it difficult right now.
Thanks… to clarify, I’m lucky that I don’t have a commute to work, but I do have a commute if I want art/cultural experiences in the City. For example, I’d like to go to an event tonight downtown and think it would do me a world of good to get out, but it will mean driving an hour alone on a pretty hairy freeway at night. It’s so easy to say forget it, I’ll just stay in. Where I live now feels more like a neighborhood than a proper city. There are restaurants and bars, but no museums, true music clubs, art galleries, and so on, so not a lot to do at night (I’m not a bar person, particularly not a solo one).
Sorry to feel you are feeling burned out. I’ve read having a long commute is a big predictor of unhappiness, which is why I chose to live near work (but far from many of the things I enjoy doing).
You will be sorely missed! You wrote with such vulnerability, willing to express feelings of loneliness and pain that every last one of us can relate to but perhaps aren’t brave enough to admit or share. And the way you could handle criticism with such grace and calm. That was impressive. What you leave here for others to discover is truly beautiful. I do hope that after some time you will come back and write again. I’m sure many of us will be checking.
I’m in the same situation – if I want to meet friends or do something interesting I have to drive an hour. I understand the hassle of living an hour from the nearest play or arthouse film. I still have friends in the city and I stay with them occasionally but more often than not I drive home because I don’t want to take advantage or overstay my welcome. Also if I am staying with them they tend to drive the agenda and I don’t feel in a position to complain when they want to stay out all night if I am tired or go home early if I am talking to someone interesting. Which is fair enough.
If your income allows it could you go to something once a month and stay overnight? Airbnb might have something suitable and if you get to know your host he or she might give you a discount if you stay there on a regular basis.
Some people here come across as “special” or diva-like but Ranty is not one of them.
Again good luck in the future. I am so sorry to see playground style bullying destroy another blog but that’s life at any age. Mean girls abound!
I have a few friends I could stay with as well (or invite to come along with me) with all the attendant issues you mentioned. I have also considered getting a hotel and making a weekend of it. The particular freeway I ended up driving is lamentable because there is no safe or accessible place to go if for any reason I should need to get off it and the exits and entrances are all confusing, but I survived, poor eyesight and all. I’m sure I’m further unnerved by the fact that in an emergency there are very few people I could call and they would all be far away. Fortunately there are other hourlong drives to other places I like to go that consist of safe and familiar surface streets.
I hardly ever see women– of any age but particularly middle age– out alone at night, so we are unusual in our willingness to wing it. I’ve come to accept that my life is pretty unusual all around and that Los Angeles, for me, is a city of experiences rather than relationships. That’s why I left, but now that I’m back, perhaps I’ll come to appreciate the secret lives I can have here, roaming to different parts of the city.
Related link: http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jan/26/entertainment/ca-socialC26
And another, as I plan to head out for another night alone: http://justmewith.com/2011/07/03/the-new-walk-of-shame-for-the-single-woman-going-out-alone/
” … but it will mean driving an hour alone on a pretty hairy freeway at night. It’s so easy to say forget it, I’ll just stay in.”
To paraphrase the amazing psychiatrist Phil Stutz,
“Let’s say for argument’s sake a person who is complaining and feeling like a victim really has something they would really like to do but is afraid to do it.
Let’s they’re a writer and want to write a book. A common desire.
They feel like a victim because they are blaming their stasis on outside world.
They need to be honest with themselves. If there is something they want to do that is meaningful to them, why are they avoiding it? They are avoiding it because there is some kind of pain, fear, hurt feelings or sadness. It doesn’t matter what it is.
Here’s the secret of pain. If they go towards it, it shrinks. If they avoid it, it follows them like a monster. Instead of desiring to avoid pain, they need to desire the pain. Because only by desiring the pain can they go into it and shrink it.
Whatever cyclical behaviour is keeping someone stuck, there is comfort in that. It’s cheating to say “I’m fucked. I’m a victim”.
What they’re really saying is, “I’m still special. But I’m special because I’m getting fucked so badly”.
So they still want their specialness. To move forward though they need to give up their specialness. Subject themselves to whatever is going to happen. Move through it. At the risk of not being special.”
It’s a choice though.
Good luck Ranty,
Sinead
I love what you’ve said here. Unfortunately I’ve found though that people who are negative about life really are the majority. And they see themselves as victims of their circumstances.
What’s your point here, Sinead? Are you saying that ranty is playing a victim so that she can feel special?
Perhaps I’m reading this wrong because I have supportive friends who would never weigh in with this kind of heavy judgement based on pop-psychology. Newsflash: Life does present people with devastating circumstances that often feel impossible to move beyond. If you’re unable to understand the depthful consideration of ranty’s posts and actually Feel with her … then take your superficial rah rah extroversion somewhere else. You sound like a couple of cheerleaders from high school. Hopefully I’ve read this wrong and if so, my apologies.
I feel devastated!! I missed the post where you said you were going to stop blogging, ranty. For a week now I have been wanting to check in here, knowing there was one post with a long thread gave me something to look forward to reading. I don’t respond often, but I am always here and so appreciate your rare honesty. I will miss your writing, and you, ranty. Much love and luck to you and do feel free to change your mind. I feel like I’m losing a friend …
Aww, thank you! I didn’t want to keep writing if I was going to start censoring myself (even subconsciously) due to anticipation of negative reactions, and perhaps at this point I’m repeating myself anyhow.
As far as my life, I’ve bucked up about the fear of driving on freeways at night alone and have been going out to some really interesting events (and just had a conversation with, by most accounts, an adventurous woman in her fifties who told me she would never go out alone). I’m enjoying myself, but tackling L.A. takes me away from any kind of creative projects of my own, so that’s a time balance thing that I’ll have to grapple with. I also think that some of the female friends I have here are based around trying to meet men, and they are nonplussed with me now that I’m concentrating on other things, but there you are.
One thing I will certainly miss is posting good articles such as this one:
http://www.newstatesman.com/glosswitch/2014/09/our-culture-dehumanises-women-reducing-them-all-breeders-and-non-breeders
Thanks for the article ranty, I will read it tonight!
I can certainly understand not wanting to feel censored … and yet letting go of the blog doesn’t feel like the answer either (I say this out of more than my own self-interest). I think you enjoy writing and interacting with those of us capable of touching the deep places you have shared with us. Letting negativity from the MG (mean girls) get in the way of your flow feels like evil wins. Of course, MG behavior is always based on fear, just as most acts of cruelty are. I wish you could find a way to keep the internal channels open, despite the fact that darkness can’t tolerate the light and will always try to put it out. The light, of course, being your courage in revealing your vulnerability.
Remember, nothing is static and you may wake up tomorrow and decide to kick some ass and block those jokers from your special blog.I don’t know if that’s possible, but wouldn’t it be nice if you could create some satisfying online friends/community, while you continue building it in ‘real life’?
This will be the extent of my ‘push’!! I trust you’ve given this a fair amount of consideration and it may’ve grown into feeling right to let it go. I hope you find other ways to continue connecting with others with substance – the world needs more of us.
Please feel free to email me if you want to, or if you cultivate another environment in which to share more freely and want to invite me to join : ) I know at least one other person said she also shared her email address. I remember Yoga Gurl with fondness and wish she was here to connect with, too.
Much love and hope for your happiness … xo.
Yoga Gurl has been here recently!
I’ve been kicking around the idea of writing fiction. We’ll see.
Will send you an email.
Well Ranty, I for one think the idea of doing something with your writing is a positive step. I wish you the best of luck with it. Some other readers might put me in the “rah-rah-extrovert” group, whatever that is, but my comments were from a genuine place and based on being a longterm reader. If you were a friend living around the corner in the same stasis, I would have been as blunt. That’s what friends do, even when it’s painful and they are hated for it. Good luck and happy travels. Sinead
I agree with blueMoon. Don’t let some negative comments affect you so much.There are other people who enjoy your writing and all the wonderful articles you post (like myself).
I think if you write on a blog then you have to expect that not everyone will agree with you or see things the same way that you do. It would be the same in real life except maybe then you would filter those people out of your life. But if you don’t have people expressing different views from you it makes for a very sycophantic experience for the reader, and ultimately a less interesting one.
I think Sinead has interesting things to say and while I might not agree with her or anyone all the time I thought it was worth being exposed to alternative views.
I think I’ve had my fill of blogs really because sooner or later they become boring and repetitive – I sort of thought they were there to facilitate dialogue but I think really they are there to provide the author the opportunity to be listened to.
That is exactly what’s missing in this blog Fi. The decisiveness to move on and two way exchange.
I don’t mind people not agreeing with me. Actually I welcome it. It would be a strange world if we all agreed with each other all the time and it is a strange world when having a different opinion immediately puts the speaker into the “negative” and “mean girls” box. It’s not the most developed of thinking or debate.
My earlier comment on Ranty’s need to remain “special” was taken at a very superficial level by some readers. It was purposely blunt in format but subtle in message.
This blog documents how blind we could all be to our own development needs (“it’s not me, it’s them. it’s not me, it’s the situation. it’s not me, it’s anything and everything outside of me. it’s not me …”).
Sometimes the problem really is with you/us.
Growing up, letting go of the need to be right, actively wanting to let go of being right, being open to hearing other people’s views, letting outdated selves die, trying new things, suspending complaint, doing instead of thinking, seeking common ground rather than foreign borders … well, that’s kind of what life is about. We all have to let go of being “special”. We’re more alike than we think.
The alternative is also documented on this blog. WIthout progress, there is only stasis or shutdown because … well … “it’s not me, it’s them, right? …”.
But if you don’t have people expressing different views from you it makes for a very sycophantic experience for the reader, and ultimately a less interesting one.
What would actually make for very interesting reading is if Ranty reflected on the criticisms, which were in every case articulated charitably and with good will and supported with examples, and explored what points she disagreed with and which (if any) she agreed with, and why.
The hallmark of self-awareness is the ability to accept and respond to constructive criticism with grace. This doesn’t mean necessarily agreeing with any of it but it does mean that even if all points are rejected, they are rejected on their merits, after thought and reflection. These things are called self-examination and standing up for one’s self.
It’s much easier, however, to lob ad hominems at the ones articulating the criticism than it is to examine one’s self because this deflects from the substance of their argument. When people do this, it tends to prevent them from finding solutions to problems that are at least in part within their control. And so the cycle of unhappiness, complaining, and looking fruitlessly for answers continues.
Fi, it’s nice to hear different opinions but there’s no need to be nasty. I think some commenters here (not you) have been unnecessarily mean to Ranty and hurt her feelings, making her stop writing the blog. I’m sorry because I liked it and I don’t like nasty, know-it-all people.
I agree, maria. The very first comment on this thread is a good example of something that feels laced in snide judgement. And no, none of these have felt “subtle” to me as a reader.
Ranty didn’t ask to be psychoanalyzed, and when she didn’t jump on thoughtfully delivered critiques of her approach to life, that was our opp’y to see that’s not what she was asking for here. Her ‘flying debri’ post was her response, and her conclusion was ‘not everyone deserves to hear your story’.
There is value in wanting to just be understood, especially for someone who’s feeling disconnected from meaningful relationships. She wasn’t asking ‘what are your suggestions on what I need to do to change my life’. She was simply sharing.
Some might have become bored by the blog. In that case, they should’ve moved on instead of trying to change the person doing the writing. I have loved this blog and am sad to see it go.
blueMoon, I agree 100%. Let’s hope Ranty reconsiders and decides to continue writing.
You could interpret my comment as snide but that wasn’t my intention or point. That’s one of the limit of reading things online. Tone can get lost. No one queried my comment either but instead went straight to labelling it as negative.
I made that comment because I thought it would do Randy good to put aside external advice and follow her gut and 44 years of life experience when it comes to dating.
I could have been more specific to remove ambiguity. A simple why do you think that would have also yielded the same result.
Interesting how situations can go off on tangents. Interesting how there is a struggle to discuss things in a progressive manner on the blog. Interesting how black and white thinking can be.
She wasn’t asking ‘what are your suggestions on what I need to do to change my life’. She was simply sharing.
Ranty is not stupid. She knows that when she turns “comments” on she is inviting diverse feedback on what she wrote.
Moreover if a blogger doesn’t like some of the feedback she can ban commenters (as Ranty has done in the past) and/or delete particular comments. Your suggestion that Ranty doesn’t have the free will to determine what should and should not appear on her own blog comes across as extremely patronising toward her.
Bloggers who share personal thoughts but for whatever reason don’t welcome public feedback communicate this by turning the comments switch off (for example, Eve Tushnet, who is reachable via email).
The list is correct but as to “mutually attracted to each other” there are many things that can enhance it and many things that can derail an initial attraction. It happens all the time often with the woman not having a clue as to why.
No intelligent dating advice? Really? Isn’t that a broad brush? What about Evan Marc Katz? He is very practical, and pro female. Very supportive and respectful of women and he really helps women find love. He has helped many older women find love. He has many success stories.
Then there is Katarina Phang. Now I don’t go for all she says but she talks about women finding and keeping their “feminine energy” as we’ve lost that and that is the basis for attraction in romance. Women find when they take her advice dating is much easier, protective of their feelings and men love it because they crave being around feminine women. She herself was (and at her core still is) and kind of masculine woman but she has learned how to be more feminine to keep her relationship strong. She is happier.
There is one book I read that was one of the most practical books ever on how to get a second date and why so many people don’t get them. It’s called “Getting Over Yourself”. She actually watched (secretly) and interviewed dates and discovered there were definite reasons why people didn’t get another chance…reasons that could be easily changed. Very enlightening.
Also there is that woman who wrote the book “Getting Married After 35”. I thought hers was very practical and helpful, too. I believe you wrote about her…but she also interviewed failed dates and discovered a lot.
I don’t know. I’ve learned a ton from these people and they’ve helped many.